It's been so quiet

Frostbight8 · March 2014

I know it's not news that the game has been dead lately. Personally, I find it pretty depressing. Once in a while, when eventing picks up, more people get into the game and everything feels a bit busier. And on that note, I've been thinking. I know that Bryson has been working on an eventing competition, but I'd love to find a way to spark (friendly) competition in general. Kind of like the race to have the best Flyball dogs, or working dogs. The "top dogs" that everyone wants to beat. However, the Top Dogs/Kennels list can be awfully competitive, with tens of thousands of points between one slot and the next. I was thinking, what if we created a sort of system that works on a forums thread? It could actively rank the top five dogs in certain categories, and maybe the top eventers overall. Perhaps there could be prizes pooled together by the community, say every month or so, for certain awards like "Herding Dog of the Month". Not only would something like this stimulate eventing, it could stimulate the market for show dogs. People could auction pups from the "Top Working Dog", and maybe those kinds of things would start fetching a lot of money again. I don't know, I was just kind of spit-balling. Anyone else have an idea?

Nacie · March 2014

I am always happy to see anything that adds to eventing so I am very interested to see where this goes. My one concern is that the dogs have to start without any evening record - that is what normally makes me decide not to enter a competition.

Frostbight8 · March 2014

Thing is, I wouldn't necessarily consider it a competition. More of an ongoing thing to encourage competitiveness in eventing. However, you do have a point there, people with dogs who already have a great eventing history would be hard to catch up to. But I feel like requesting that dogs considered for the top lists have no eventing history would scare a lot of people off, since they wouldn't be able to use their current eventers.

Nacie · March 2014

Either way, it would be very nice to see more people entering events - and having events fill faster - and hopefully be full when they run. I have slacked off entering events cause they are ran with only a few entries a lot of the time.

MrClean · March 2014

I love the idea of having something that could regularly keep track of dogs, rather than a one-time competition or a list that takes forever to move up! There are some dogs that start showing late for whatever reason but are just amazing eventers, but will simply never make it to the Top Dogs list because they don't have enough time left in their lifespan to earn the fame. I also agree that any restrictions on competition level or event history would probably ruin it, since people mostly already have their show dogs and wouldn't want to have to start a whole new eventing team/lineup just for this. I think your idea for "Herding Dog of the Month" (etc) is a good one...but I know that whoever would be tasked with judging would have their work cut out for them having to go through all the events of each type. If people had to submit their own dogs, and then regularly submit earnings or wps % or whatever, I think it could work better. Maybe the categories should be a bit broader though...? I know some players show some dogs in sporting events in general and other dogs in working events. So rather than "Agility Dog of the Month" maybe "Sport Dog of the Month"? I'd also like to address running events with low entries. I think the problem compounds itself because some players wait to enter their dogs until there are a certain number of entries, and then there are never that many entries (especially when eventing is this slow). So they expect to wait until the event has at least 20 entries, then fill it up at 28-30...after a week there are only 16 entries but instead of entering dogs so that there are at least 20, they wait. Then the events sit so long waiting for entries Ops end up running them (this has been happening to me these past couple of weeks). It's frustrating because when my events run with 16 entries, people assume I'm just running them too early. Then someone else decides not to enter my events and next week my events sit forever 12 entries

I was trying to think of something for a while that would give people incentive to enter events, but other than flat out paying vpc for people to enter their dogs I came up blank.

Luminarium · March 2014

I think a possible solution to the "dogs with no eventing history" situation could possibly creating a list for each competition level. So the top ranked international dog, top national, regional, and so forth? That might be a good way to inspire both showing not only current eventers but also new ones as well? It might make it feel like it's easier to "catch up" That's my two cents

Nacie · March 2014

bryson wrote:

 I'd also like to address running events with low entries. I think the problem compounds itself because some players wait to enter their dogs until there are a certain number of entries, and then there are never that many entries (especially when eventing is this slow). So they expect to wait until the event has at least 20 entries, then fill it up at 28-30...after a week there are only 16 entries but instead of entering dogs so that there are at least 20, they wait. Then the events sit so long waiting for entries Ops end up running them (this has been happening to me these past couple of weeks). It's frustrating because when my events run with 16 entries, people assume I'm just running them too early. Then someone else decides not to enter my events and next week my events sit forever 12 entries I was trying to think of something for a while that would give people incentive to enter events, but other than flat out paying vpc for people to enter their dogs I came up blank.

Everything you said is very true, from the waiting to enter all the way to the ops running events and then people thinking the owner ran the event! LOL sorry but that is almost always what I do and think most of the time. However, I will say that also a lot of the time I just can't take it and end up entering events even when there are low entries. But I would love it if events were not ran until entries hit at least 26. That way dogs and owner's kennel get more points.

MrClean · March 2014

I'm with you Nacie, and I'm even guilty of that thought process myself when I go to check an event that was run and see it only had 10-15 dogs. That's why I'm hoping that this competition I'm about to post, and whatever comes from this discussion thread, will boost eventing enough to stop this problem...at least for a little while! It's not only discouraging for players like you that don't like to enter their dogs in events with low entries. But it makes it that much harder for players like me, who are trying to catch up to players like you and Frost on the Top Kennels list

I think Lumi is on to something...but since dogs don't stay Junior or Novice for long those lists might be more work to keep up with than they're worth. Maybe there can be two lists, one for "beginners" (Junior, Novice, Regional) and one for "expert eventers" (National, International). Of course you wouldn't have to use those titles but you get what I mean. Then both sets of dogs could have their own awards.

Frostbight8 · March 2014

I like where this is going, actually! I agree with Lumi's idea, and Brys is right, too. You'd practically need to be hovering over a device 24/7 to keep junior/novice lists up to date!

So, right now, it's looking like this could have the following categories: Sporting Dog of the Month Working Dog of the Month And I'm not exactly sure what to call these awards, either, but maybe something along the lines of, Veteran Eventing Dog of the Month Beginner Eventing Dog of the Month If anyone can think of a more creative title for these, I'm open to suggestions. Now, I think the mechanics of how this would rank the dogs needs some thought. What do you guys think is the fairest way to rank the dogs?

MrClean · March 2014

I personally would like to see dogs get recognition for their earnings. Every dog's wps % is easy to see on their page and you can assume that a dog with a record of 110/135/141 (500) is a pretty great eventer. But then there are dogs that spend their whole showing careers coming in between 3rd and 5th. So that dog's event record would look more like 0/0/141 (500). It's not the best event dog but it's still a good show dog, since it is consistently earning vpc. Let's say you have two dogs and put them both in 20 events. One dog places 4th in every event, and the other places 1st in one event and second in one event, then places really low in all the rest. The dog that places 4th in every event is technically the better show dog, but the wps record wouldn't reflect that. So I think it would be nice to see dogs recognized for what they earn, rather than their wps.

Nacie · March 2014

bryson wrote:

I personally would like to see dogs get recognition for their earnings. Every dog's wps % is easy to see on their page and you can assume that a dog with a record of 110/135/141 (500) is a pretty great eventer. But then there are dogs that spend their whole showing careers coming in between 3rd and 5th. So that dog's event record would look more like 0/0/141 (500). It's not the best event dog but it's still a good show dog, since it is consistently earning vpc. Let's say you have two dogs and put them both in 20 events. One dog places 4th in every event, and the other places 1st in one event and second in one event, then places really low in all the rest. The dog that places 4th in every event is technically the better show dog, but the wps record wouldn't reflect that. So I think it would be nice to see dogs recognized for what they earn, rather than their wps.

I love this idea! I have many dogs that I show all the time - and are on the top dog list but they mostly do not come in first place. So this idea is great.

Para Darkwater · April 2014

I've been gone for a little bit due to several reasons but have come back to see some really great ideas being tossed around in this thread. I love VP and love eventing and am working on re-organizing some things in my kennel line and plan to focus more and more on eventing. I've been moving up on the top kennels list but it is daunting considering its an all time list. Which is good in a lot of ways but like said in this thread doesn't reflect some of the great active eventers and show dogs. My brain is a bit scattered at the moment so I don't have any ideas to share but would love to see something come about. It would be great to be able to see which dogs are doing well. Like Bryson said some dogs are good eventers but don't have the best wps % to show it. Especially with a lot of events not scoring correctly right now it would be nice to have something in place to really see how the dogs are measuring up. Oh p.s. even though there aren't as many event types conformation and showmanship could make up a show dog category.

PaperWings · April 2014

The vp wiki, although kinda abandoned/neglected, still does exist. So if you guys wanted to use it for a communal project you are more than welcome to take over it. Would mean that if you wanted to keep a list of standings you can have a group of you to maintain it rather than relying on one person to update a forum thread all the time - could split it down to roles for people to monitor particular events etc as well. It would be password protected to stop bots and random people sabotaging the pages, and will probably need an overhaul in looks and content but if you are interested just drop me a message

MrClean · April 2014

Oh yeah, Para! Besides sporting and working there should be a show category. I guess you could also put obedience dogs under that category as well. I'm not sure what all would be entailed in taking over the VP wiki, but I do think it would be a good idea for this to be more of a community project :-)

Alabama · April 2014

bryson wrote:

I'd also like to address running events with low entries. I think the problem compounds itself because some players wait to enter their dogs until there are a certain number of entries, and then there are never that many entries (especially when eventing is this slow). So they expect to wait until the event has at least 20 entries, then fill it up at 28-30...after a week there are only 16 entries but instead of entering dogs so that there are at least 20, they wait. Then the events sit so long waiting for entries Ops end up running them (this has been happening to me these past couple of weeks). It's frustrating because when my events run with 16 entries, people assume I'm just running them too early. Then someone else decides not to enter my events and next week my events sit forever 12 entries I was trying to think of something for a while that would give people incentive to enter events, but other than flat out paying vpc for people to enter their dogs I came up blank.

I think the biggest help to this would be if people didn't wait to enter or to run events. The faster an event runs, the quicker it can be set up again meaning more money for everyone and more events to actually enter. If you enter 4 dogs in an event, you have a better chance of making more money if you can enter more events each week than you can only enter them every 2 weeks. Say I set up 4 events, run them in 4 days and set them back up, that means there are 8 events just from me each week for players to enter. If I wait for them to fill to 20 and it takes a week, I'm only able to set up 4 events that week. More entries is really only a help to the host since they get money for each entry. Ten entries means they break even for the cost to set up the event and any number over that is profit for hosting. Even then, you can make as much money running an event with 15 players every 3.5 days as you do waiting a week for 20 entries. For the players entering, less competition is better: Your dog has a better chance of placing, meaning more money earned. I may be wrong, it's been a while, but the reason Ops started running them was because it was taking so long for events to run. From an Ops point of view now days, an event can be run with 4 entries from 2 different players after 24 hours (-1 days). Most of the time, we don't run them with that few because it's not fair for the host to constantly lose money on an event because we're running them too quickly. We generally look at events at -4 or older (when we remember or someones asks us to look) and anything with a high number of entries is ran. Anything with 10 entries from 2 players that's over 4 days old is fair game. The host doesn't lose money and the players don't have to wait more than a week for the event to run. If the events are older than a week, they can be run with 4 entries from 2 players or they can deleted if they don't meet that criteria.

MrClean · April 2014

Alabama wrote:

More entries is really only a help to the host since they get money for each entry. Ten entries means they break even for the cost to set up the event and any number over that is profit for hosting. Even then, you can make as much money running an event with 15 players every 3.5 days as you do waiting a week for 20 entries.

In the past few weeks it has been taking more than 3.5 days to get 15 entries. I've stopped running certain event types altogether because even after more than a week my events still wouldn't have more than 7 or 8 entries. So it's not greed, it's just been really slow here recently. Besides, it's not all about the money...at least not for me. A major aspect of eventing is gaining fame. I have more vpc than I know what to do with, and could care less about breaking even on my event creation fees. One of my main goals in the game right now is moving up theTop Kennels list. I would much rather get 4 points every week from hosting nearly full events than 2 points a week from hosting two "just full enough to run" events. I also hope to eventually have some of my dogs end up on the Top Dogs list. And according to the VP help files:

"Your dog gains competition level by competing in events. It is awarded score when it competes... The amount of score it is awarded is based on how well it did vs. how many dogs. So placing first place in a full event of 30, would give you a lot more score (and fame points) for your dog, than placing 5th out of 7 dogs"

I not only host events, I enter my dogs in my events as well. I know I'm not the only one that wants my dogs to get as many points as possible, and I'm sure that's why most people wait to run their events. I can't speak for everyone but the few people I have talked to about the issue seem more concerned with their dogs' fame and their kennels' fame than for the event entry fees.

Alabama · April 2014

I think I did it again. I did not write that thinking people were being greedy. I was going on the assumption that players were looking for ideas to liven things up. Running events faster and not having to wait to see results might do this. Discussing finances was just explaining a reason why running them faster is better and why Ops don't run them even sooner. You're right Bryson, I forgot about fame in events. More entries does give better fame. However, if your dog places in 1st in 1 event with 20 dogs, it would gain about the same as placing first in 2 events with 11 dogs. If an event is getting 10 entries in 2 days, you can run it 3 times in a week and gain more fame than waiting a week for 20 entries. So if money isn't a concern, it's even better to run the events so your dogs gain fame faster. Back when events were filling with 20 or 30 entries in 2 days, it was a valid reason to wait for all 30 entries. But now, not so much. I don't recall seeing it anywhere, but has anyone tested how much fame is earned per event for the host and if it's dependent on the number of entries? If the coding is similar to another game that formed the basis for VP, the number of entries doesn't matter, host gets the same amount of fame whether an event is run with 4 or 20 entries. Sometimes, what Nef intended and what happened are not the same on VP.

MrClean · April 2014

It's true that placing first in one event of 20 dogs should be the same as two events with 10 dogs... but the main issue that I've been seeing (not always, just mostly in the past two weeks or so) is that most events take a week to get 10 entries! So in theory your idea of running events three times a week with 10 entries each would be great! ... If people would enter lol It's fine for events like flyball and sometimes agility, that fill up with 15-20 entries in a day. But I have dogs for all different event types and I'd like to be able to show them all, and last time I hosted racing events they sat for 8+ days with 6 entries. I literally had to beg on the BarkPark and forums just to get enough entries to run the events! So the way I see it, if I'm going to have to wait for 5 days to get 12 entries, why not wait for 7 or 8 days to get 20?

But I see what you're saying, and I think that is something that could maybe boost eventing. If there are always agility events being constantly created and run, maybe more people will get into it because they'll be able to see the benefits of it more (they'll be seeing returns on a more regular basis). I know that fame for the host depends on the number of entries. I think its 1 point for up to 15, 2 points up to 20, 3 up to 25, and then 4 points for 26 entries or more. I've never done any research into the specifics of how the gains change for the dogs.

Para Darkwater · April 2014

I also like the idea of this being a community project. That will hopefully not only spark some competition for the event scene but maybe a project like this will help get the community going again and generate some chatter and interest over all. Also then not only one person is tasked with having to keep up and if something happens there will be others who can take over a section if say the person assigned to it gets busy or what have you. In regards to eventing in general I think if everyone who is still active makes a conscious effort to enter events it will not only obviously stimulate eventing and VP in general but perhaps, it would help attract new players to stay longer if they see that VP is still alive and well. A little while ago I started eventing 4 dogs in each event which is something I hadn't done. The goal was just to help out with event entry numbers. Some of them were good eventers, some of them just "fillers" but there for a while it did seem to help out some. I've become busy with some real life situation and am having internet issues to top it off and thus haven't been as active lately but hopefully that will change soon. My line of thinking is that even though eventing is slow and almost not worth entering that it wont get any better if I just decide not to event until it picks up again. That would just lead to a slow death. Nothing will change in the event scene unless we event despite the low number of entries. It's kind of like that movie "Angles In The Outfield" where they say "If you build it, they will come". My hope is that if I and others event more players will come and we can see a revival of sorts sweep across VP. We all have real lives so I understand its not possible to enter every single event all the time but in general if the active players start entering again things may take a turn for the better.

Frostbight8 · April 2014

Wow, I've fallen a little behind on replying to this! I'm loving this interest, though. Paper, thank you! That was actually one of my concerns, that it would be difficult to keep a forum thread completely up to date. I'd love to actually bring this thing together. I felt like there was a category missing, Para! So we can do Sport, Work and Show categories, along with the beginner/veteran awards. I like the idea of scoring based on WPS %, I think that this would also manage to drive the breeding part of the game, as it would encourage people to try and breed for dogs that will have a competitive record. Now, do you guys think ranking the top five dogs in each category would be enough? Or should we do more? Now, another thing that I was thinking about was how the dogs become eligible to be on this list, or participate in it. Would people need to register their dogs with us?

Para Darkwater · April 2014

I'm more in line with Bryson on scoring based on earnings. Like mentioned a lot of good eventers get overlooked because their wps record may not look the best at first glance but with coming in say 4th consistantly they are earning VPC and may actually be a better eventer in those regards than a dog with a better 1st place win record. And with eventing scoring wonky in general sometimes a dog that should normally be a good eventer doesn't place consistently in the top 3. I'm not opposed to scoring on wps% though. This would be more work but if willing maybe we could have two categories? One for the wps% and the other for the earnings, that way we can kind of compare the two and see where the dogs fall. That's just a thought, may be too much work but wanted to throw it out there. Not sure about how to consider dogs for this. We could have it as a event dog registry where players will submit their dogs but then if a really good eventer doesn't submit their dogs than the list wont be accurate. so not sure how to tackle that issue lol

PaperWings · April 2014

Wiki is pretty simple to maintain, just let me know what you want the page as such to be called and I can add it in. If someone wants to tidy up the rest of it they can let me know what they want to add/remove etc. And I'll sort the password stuff out to just let a few people know what it is and then they can decide if they want to let more people know or not.

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It's been so quiet

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