Victoria Stillwell or Cesar Millan?

iluvdogs111 · March 2011

I do not want to start a fight. I want to know your opinion on which training methods work better-Victoria Stillwell's (Star of It's Me or the Dog) or Cesar Millan's (star of Dog Whisperer). Victoria Stillwell uses positive reinforcement. <a href="http://positively.com/"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://positively.com/</a> Cesar Millan uses calm assertive training and acts like the alpha of the pack. <a href="http://www.cesarsway.com/"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://www.cesarsway.com/</a> I respect both trainers for their patience, passion, and courage. They both are very knowledgable when it comes to dogs and both of their methods seem to work well. Their methods, however, are very different. Let me give an example. A dog is barking and jumping up for attention. Victoria: Ignore the dog until it stops. When it does, praise it and give it attention. Cesar: Tap the dog and make a loud "SHH!" noise to correct it. Overall, I prefer Victoria Stillwell's training methods. She is very passionite about dogs and will stand by every one of her methods. She never raises her voice or punishes a dog. I love how positive she is. She doens't reward dogs for bad behavior, but she also doesn't scold them constantly. She doesn't treat dogs like humans but she respects them. Cesar Millan often physically corrects dogs. For example, he uses choke chains and firmly taps dogs to correct them. When done correctly, I don't believe these methods are abuse. However, in my opinion, Cesar is too "aggressive" when training dogs. If Cesar was doing that to either of my dogs, they would be terrified. Cesar treats dogs almost like wolves. They do have that instinct but I think they need to be treated like pets, not wild animals. I am not saying that using these methods is wrong. However getting physical, even if it doesn't cause a dog pain, can effect them emtionally. Some of the dogs on Cesar's show seem stressed when they're around him. On Victoria's show, she gives the dog time to work it out for themselves instead of immediatly scolding them. Once I saw a dog on her show that wouldn't stop barking. Rather than scolding it, she ignored it. It went on for a long time and took a lot of patience. Eventually, the dog figured out that barking was getting him no where. When he stopped, Victoria gave him the toy he'd been barking for. So, in your opinon, which method works better for you and your dog and why? I know this can be a touchy subject so please don't attack others for their views. Thanks!

LaLa_Laru · March 2011

I don't really like either of them. I've seen their shows and all, and I'm not really impressed. :shock: But hey, if they get their own show they must be miracle workers right?? (wrong). They don't really do anything special in my opinion, but I guess for people that don't have experience in training they are amazing (no offense to anyone). : / A calm and assertive, but dominant voice works with MY dogs, they don't need to be touched for anything. But that's just what works for ME and my relationship with my animals. Different dogs will have different personalities and will need different methods of training. I believe that if either of those people had come to my home to train my dogs when they were still in need of training, based on what I've seen on their shows, they would have been disappointed. Cesar would have probably gotten his hand removed by Bully for being too physical (Bully doesn't take crap from anyone but me : ), and Victoria would have been standing in my house all day if she just waited for the bad behavior to stop, neither of the their methods are really right for me.

Alabama · March 2011

I think each are great and it really depends on the dog and the people in the situation. For instance, the jumping up issue you describe, with Buddy, I used a touch (usually putting my knee up to stop him) and down command. If I tried to ignore Buddy, he'd get more insistent to the point of almost knocking me down. With Alex, he stops faster if I ignore him. If I give Alex any attention, even to tell him no or down, he gets more excited, not less. My problem with both of them is that people look/watch them and decide to use which ever method on their own dogs without any instruction. Milan and Stillwell are both present and experienced and can key in on the subtle clues that will tell them what to do and when. I can almost bet that viewers don't see the dogs they couldn't train using their methods alone and they certainly don't see the hours of actual training it really takes. Viewers only see the few minutes leading up to success and expect their training to go the same way.

BabyBean13 · March 2011

Alabama wrote:

 My problem with both of them is that people look/watch them and decide to use which ever method on their own dogs without any instruction. Milan and Stillwell are both present and experienced and can key in on the subtle clues that will tell them what to do and when. I can almost bet that viewers don't see the dogs they couldn't train using their methods alone and they certainly don't see the hours of actual training it really takes. Viewers only see the few minutes leading up to success and expect their training to go the same way.

I agree. Shows like that are meant to glorify whoever is hosting the show. It's rare to see shows where people are going to allow themselves to look bad or unprofessional. Would you rather watch success or failure? Allow seeing failure brings honesty/modesty and is real, it can also lose faith in the method and the host's glory. A host is going to want you to believe in them, see them as rightious(sp?), and be a fan of their work. Not to mention they're getting paid for the amount of viewers. But animals have personalities of their own. You really can't steriotype something that has a vast variety of traits and you can't assume they're always going to act the same way. Even with one dog, two different methods could work depending on the situation. Maybe one method works better indoors, and the other has a better affect outdoors than the first one would. It's a trial and error attempt, and that's the purpose of experimentation. Training isn't as easy as a 30 minute-1 hour show is gonna make it seem. And many people, as Bama said, are gonna believe exactly what they see.

CallyKats Dachshunds · March 2011

As well as agreeing with Bama, I'll also say that I would choose Milan's over Stillwell's if I had to choose. Anytime I've been around dogs, I've corrected them for doing something wrong or something that I didn't agree with. Some owners have no issue with their dogs jumping up on them and getting tears and mud on their shirts. I have absolutely no tolerance for this though. If I'm invited to someone's house with a dog that might do that (or whatever else), I'll tell them that I will correct their dog(s) if they do it to me. If they don't agree with it, they can keep their dog away from me so that it doesn't get the chance. When I think about myself, I'm extremely dominant, as a person. I play dominance games with other people/animals, probably just the same as a wolf or dog would.It's just how I am, and it's worked for me every time. My cousin's dog has absolutely no desire to listen to his owners, but he'll listen to me without a second thought. No one else corrects him, they only praise him when he does what they want. I think it's more so a balance of both as opposed to one or the other. If I were to use just one technique on a dog, I'd bet that neither would work as effectively as I'd like. But when you bring in correction and praise, I believe it takes much less time, is more effective, and is easier on the dog. Last thought on each: Milan: -If all you do is correct a dog, and never praise, I'm willing to bet that the dog is going to try and do next to nothing, in order to avoid what is going to get him/her in trouble and reprimanded. Stillwell: -If all you do is praise a dog, and never correct them, I'm willing to bet that the dog is going to try just about everything in order to get that treat that you're using to give praise. It may be successful after awhile, but it's going to take an extremely long time to get where you want, with more consistency and more time than most people have to give.

EA*Kennel · March 2011

I have to say I agree here with the over all comment, both are brilliant at what they do and they get positive results from their training methods . But like Alabama said the time scale is drasically shorterned in the television programme. If they were not good trainers and did not get results then people would not write in and ask for their help nor would people watch them.

iluvdogs111 · March 2011

You guys made some good points. You're right, people tend to believe the training is easy. I can see someone easily getting hurt with either of the methods if they dont' know how to do it correctly. Someone tries Victoria's method and frustrates their dog or gives in, someone tries Cesar's way and makes their dog aggressive. Yes, all animals have very different personalities. Both trainers do vary their methods for each dog, but they come with the same focus: Dominance or Positive Reinforcement I think people should be able to enjoy their pets. Cesar expects the dog to only do things when you tell them, how you tell them. Dogs shouldn't be treated like humans, but they shouldn't be constantly bossed around either. You need to have a good balance between being in charge and stressing out the dog. Actually, Victoria definetely corrects dogs. She just doesn't constantly scold them or correct them physically like Cesar does. Often, Victoria will just remove them from the situation to show them their behavior is getting them no where. She likes to let the dogs figure it out for themselves but that never means giving in or letting things slide. Personally I wouldn't want Cesar training my dogs. He is really rough sometimes. I do use both their methods while training my dogs though.

Kazuko · March 2011

Personally, I use Milan's methods. That's how we raised/trained Kira, and she's an amazing dog. Sure, positive reinforcement is great, and Milan's methods can backfire if you don't know what you're doing, or understand why you're doing it, but doing it properly gets you results, and fast. Kira heels amazingly, she doesn't jump on people, she never climbs on the sofa, she doesn't go anywhere that we've set off limits (IE: Our bedroom, or the kitchen/upstairs unless we're with her, or we ask her to), she doesn't explore people's houses unless we invite her to, and she's in general very respectful. We can leave food on the floor, as well as the low coffee table that serves as our dining table, and she'll leave it alone. She's not possessive over anything, she's not aggressive towards anything, and all in all she's just a very well balanced dog, and we love her. She acts extremely well mannered, and for being only ten months old, that's awesome. I've also used Milan's methods to train friends' dogs, to leash train them, to keep them from jumping, to keep them calm and respectful. I've gotten pit bulls and cattle dogs and what have you who have never heeled before to heel beside me, and then beside their owners, in a matter of ten or twenty minutes. His methods just work for me.

iluvdogs111 · March 2011

I just found this Victoria Stillwell article about why she does not use the "pack leader" method. It was pretty interesting! <a href="http://positively.com/files/100101-bestfriends.pdf"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://positively.com/files/100101-bestfriends.pdf</a>;

Zensandwich · March 2011

While your case for Stillwell is interesting, I think Millan gets dogs that have far more severe behavior problems. I've watched both shows and Stillwell often handles "normal" problems, such as excessive barking, failure to house train, and food dominance. While Millan also often encounters these problems, he deals a lot more with severely aggressive dogs that are on the brink of being put down. I think Stillwell's method is more useful when handling minor problems, but I wouldn't want her treating a severely aggressive dog. I know she has encountered them before on her show, but I don't think her method is as effective as Millan's in those cases. Also I disagree that Millan uses physical force to punish. To say that would imply that he uses any force at all, which I have never noticed. It seems to me that the loud noise followed by a touch sort of snaps the dog out of its state of mind. I don't think he could get away with having a show if he actually used physical punishment,

DiamondPuppy0809 · March 2011

I use Cesar's methods, but I can't compare the two because guess what? I've never watched Victoria Stillwell's show. I've seen ads, heard about it, watched five minutes... but I never got into it, I guess. I always get really interested in Cesar's show. I know it's not about entertainment, but I hear why and how Cesar does his methods and it fascinates me! We used Cesar's methods on our dogs and they worked wonderfully for my dog-aggressive dog. I realized how scared I got when dogs are around her, which triggered her to act out even more. Now that I've calmed down when around dogs while walking her (I basically ignore them and pretend they're not there and only pay attention to Molly), she's noticeably less interested in them. Sometimes she'll whine and jump around, but nothing aggressive anymore. Also, when I encounter my friend's dogs or dogs on the street. I don't make eye contact, talk to them, or pet them unless they're showing good behaviour. They listen well to me, most of them don't jump at my legs like they would with other people. I don't think Stillwell's methods would work on my dog with excessive barking. We'll ignore him until his throat's raw and he won't stop if he thinks something is important (ex. a person outside our house, car door slam sound, other dogs barking, bear in the backyard, etc). When we go out of the way to use Cesar's methods properly, I find amazing results. Max is a whole different dog when walking if I'm putting effort into it--same goes for Molly. As long as we're alert, assertive, and preventing it, they behave beauitfully. I think our only problem is that the whole family doesn't seem to care enough to discipline properly (my eleven year old sister and father who doesn't like animals very much). They pet and praise at the wrong time.

danae11 · April 2011

I wouldn't say either knew everything about dog training but Cesar knows nothing about body language, uses harsh unnecessary methods to bully dogs into being shut down and calls them "calm-submissive" and uses the long outdated and disproven dominance theory. He says absolutely anything a dog does is dominance from what I've seen of the show and some of the episodes are horrific dragging a 10 month old saint bernard up the stairs by a choke chain when giant breed puppies shouldn't be using the stairs for one. When you read the episode guide for his show it says that many of the dogs he's "rehabilitated" have either been rehomed because the issues were never fixed or in one case had their teeth filed down because it didn't stop them biting. Victoria talks a lot more sense and uses much more humane methods. Her methods also will not cause as much damage to dogs when used by someone who watches 5 minutes of the show and think they're experts. So many positive trainers are having to do serious rehabilitation work on dogs trained using Cesar methods that are shut down, scared or even more aggressive than they were before. If nothing else if you know about dog body language and stress signals watch both shows with the sound off. The one's on Cesar's show are throwing serious stress signals avoiding eye contact, licking their lips, shaking sorry "releasing energy", turning away from him, excessive panting etc. On VS's show they're happy, relaxed, making eye contact with her, eager to do more training. How would you want your dog to be? As for dominance theory the guy made one hypothesis that dogs are just wolves and are pack animals and are constantly trying to take over the house and their humans so must be dominated and controlled. So he did one study of a captive group of wolves, observed some behaviours such as the alpha male eats first and decided that dogs should be treated the same. Most of these behaviours have never been spotted in other groups, and even the man who came up with the theory has said it was flawed. Sorry this got looong

Kazuko · April 2011

My dog's not scared, overly submissive, shy, or aggressive. She doesn't avoid eye contact. She's happy, relaxed, and extremely eager to do what we ask, sometimes even trying to do everything we've taught her at once. (She'll sit then raise her paws into the air in the 'shake' gesture', then she'll hit the ground in the 'down' gesture, and then she'll bark as if we've asked her to 'speak' and then she'll repeat this process again, when we've only requested she 'sit' xD) Cesar knows body language pretty darn well, and because I've learned from his show, I can detect fights waiting to happen. xD

danae11 · April 2011

Ok what would you think if a dog was shaking very badly, avoiding eye contact, licking it's lips, had one paw up that was shaking even worse? Terrified dog or one trying to dominate you? One thing I could never work out back when I thought he was some sort of training god who knew everything and seemed to work miracles on the dogs why was every dog he had gotten into a "calm-submissive" state lying there panting heavily. Then you learn excessive panting is a stress signal. Like I said watch it with the sound off so you don't here him giving his speech about this vicious evil dominant dog and make your own decision

danae11 · April 2011

Duplicate post can't work out how to delete it sorry

Kazuko · April 2011

Have you considered the heavy panting may be because they're tired? A lot of those dogs put up some pretty heavy fights.

DiamondPuppy0809 · April 2011

Kazuko wrote:

Have you considered the heavy panting may be because they're tired? A lot of those dogs put up some pretty heavy fights.

I think this is entirely true because when I'm using "Cesar methods" on my dog, they're naturally submissive, so they don't pant at all-- they haven't put up a fight.

iluvdogs111 · April 2011

I agree, some of those dogs don't want to give up! However I have seen some clips of dogs that showed other signs of stress. I guess it all depends on the dog. My dog is submissive, very submissive. If you even scold her she hangs her head and goes to lay down. My uncle has a Golden that was once abused, and if he even yells at her she cowers and closes her eyes like he's going to hit her. It's really said. If Cesar was using some of those methods on a dog like that, it's safe to say they'd be stressed out. And I think some people misunderstood me. Victoria doesn't just ignore dogs when they're barking. That was just one example of a clip I saw where a dog was barking for a toy, and he didn't get the toy until he stopped. She does tell them to stop, she just doesn't tap them or correct them like Cesar does, she uses other methods.

danae11 · April 2011

I'd put up a fight if someone was hanging me by a choke chain. Of course when they're on the ground fighting for breath after said struggle, one's penis was a little bit out look he's trying to dominate me right now. Dog was fighting for breath I really doubt it somehow. Every dog he puts in a "calm-submissive" state is panting heavily it isn't just tiredness. But I guess people will see what they want to see hell I used to think he was some kind of training god now I just think he's a pathetic little bully using dogs to get some sort of power fix. Like I said watch it with the sound off. His spiel and voice is awfully hypnotic you fall for all the crap about energy and dominance. You learn so much more just watching the dogs even his own pack or the ones he had staying in the DPC before he turfed them all back to the rescue shelters they came from when he moved out to the ranch, very few "rehabilitated" by the way, some flinch when he looks sideways at them. Pitbulls, gsds, mastiffs shouldn't be that unconfident

Kazuko · April 2011

He never said it was because he was trying to dominate him. I know the episode you're talking about, he said that the struggle was "exciting". He doesn't hang dogs by their choke chains. They jump at him, so he holds them up and away, protecting himself. Hell, I'd do the same thing. I mean, if you actually WATCHED that episode, that dog would've tore him to pieces if he'd gotten the chance. Milan actually had to put on a new shirt because Shadow filled the other one with holes. I'd like to see Stillwell handle that dog. For someone who doesn't want to start a fight, you sure do sound like you're demeaning anyone who believes Milan's methods work. =p I've used his methods on several dogs. None of these dogs flinch, none of them do any of the sad, pathetic reactions you seem to think they all must do. If you're using Milan's methods to the point of causing an animal harm, then you're not really using Milan's methods.

danae11 · April 2011

I don't and never would use Cesar's methods bar actually using calm assertive energy when handling my own dogs I really use any of Victoria's either. However I've seen her and various other trainers training "red-zone" dogs and I've rarely seen any of them bragging about their injuries or having injuries from those dogs. I do see the episode with Shadow by the way. I also saw the one with the chinese crested mix that had been brought out of a Mexican rescue that could barely walk, not through fear the poor thing had advanced liver disease among other things, did he take her for a medical evaluation? No presumably you've seen the episode he stuck her in with all the dogs at the DPC and let them shove her around because the pack would make her move. She could barely walk she had to be euthanised a few weeks later due to her medical condition I'm getting a giant schnauzer a breed most people say you have to dominate, you have to use harsh methods on. Having spoken to someone who's owned 14 the first 11 trained by traditional methods, the last three clicker trained what method do you think she says gets the best out of the breed? A large intelligent working dog formally a guard breed still used by police forces and in protection sports. She would recommend clicker training any day for them. You get so much more out of a dog that way. I treat my dogs the way I would want to be treated and that would not involve using harsh methods or choke chains.

Kazuko · April 2011

A friend brought up an interesting point about Cesar trying to get a 'power fix' from dogs: The same could be said for ANYone training a dog. We're trying to get them to do what WE want them to do. I haven't seen that episode yet, but am probably working my way to it. Some people make mistakes. He's not god, and I understand this. He's only human. I have a border collie/German shepherd mix. The only time we've used positive reinforcement is when teaching her commands, and that's perfectly find. But let me remind you of something Cesar reminds plenty of people: He's not there to train your dog. He won't teach this sit, down, and stay. He's there to show owners how to correct unwanted behaviors.

danae11 · April 2011

True we're all trying to get our dogs to behave the way we want to but it's the way he puts it's more like a power struggle over these dogs dominating them forcing them to submit. Sure he makes mistakes the 10 month old saint bernard puppy that was run around a neighbourhood then dragged up the stairs by a choke chain. Now correct me if I'm wrong but giant breeds shouldn't use the stairs too much and especially puppies. Not for a good valid reason the owners wanted the puppy to share the bed with them. Surely most dog people especially someone used to owning and training large breed dogs, they are his specialty after all aren't they the gladiator breeds, should know that. Lily was horrific anyone looking at her, you'll see it I hope, could see she was scared and in pain and most trainers will tell you to get your dog a medical examination before you do any training. You say that yet nearly every dog he "rehabilitates" he trains to sit and lie down mostly by yanking them into position using a choke chain or prong collar by anyway. Pretty sure I've seen him teach them to stay behind lines or just outside of doors too. He does train dogs

Kazuko · April 2011

But he doesn't teach 'sit' 'stay' 'down'. =p And as for the Bernard puppy... that dog didn't seem to be in pain to me. At all. Milan didn't run her too fast or too hard, in fact, he actually said WHY he wasn't doing those things: They're furry, large breeds who overheat quickly. The dog just needed to get over her irrational aversion to stairs. *shrug* Maybe I'm just a cruel heartless individual. Not that you'd ever tell that by looking at my dog.

danae11 · April 2011

Sorry what would you call yanking up by the collar, pushing the butt down and commanding sit or pulling down until they're lying down and telling them down repeatedly? To me that's training sit or lie down I wouldn't be dragging a puppy that miserable up the stairs by a choke chain especially in a breed not meant to use them while growing just because I was selfish and wanted it to sleep in my room

Kazuko · April 2011

Well, Cesar wasn't the one who wanted it to sleep in his room. xD He was just doing what he was paid for. Who knows, maybe he did tell them the risks of this? We never see what goes on BEFORE he shows up. He's never said "Down." repeatedly. In fact, when owners do that, he tells them NOT to. xD Because it's just repetitive noise.

danae11 · April 2011

Yes it was the owners who were selfish however a good trainer would have refused rather than pointlessly drag a stressed out puppy up the stairs. No he repeats the training of sit or lie down again and again to me that's old-style dog training sit and lie down. I know he says only say it once which is one of the few things he does get right. I like some of the things he does he encourages people to exercise their dogs even toys, people ask him to choose them a dog he gets one from a shelter, pushes people to spay and neuter, he helps show people that the so-called devil breeds are good dogs in the right hands and I think he does work to shut down puppy mills. All things to be applauded just not his training methods.

Kazuko · April 2011

I'm just of the thought that his methods work when used properly. Just a matter of knowing what to do, what not to do, and how hard to push. I agree, he preaches a lot of good things outside of behavioral issues. Just like to say that I totally respect you for being able to put up with a debate against me. xD

danae11 · April 2011

I think dominance theory has been disproven by too many people over just about every breed from terriers, guard dogs, primitive flock guardians anatolians CAOs etc, the sled dogs to use his methods which are for the most part based on dominance theory. I don't like the idea of using hard methods on dogs mine are clicker trained although they do get told no when need be and they listen without having choke chains used or alpha rolled. Debating's fun and especially when it's something I feel so passionate about like dogs being treated cruelly as I feel he does sometimes and certainly as others do trying to copy his methods. I've spoken to so many trainers who have been called in to try and fix the dogs trained by these methods. Maybe Cesar does know when to stop or not to push the dog too far but those copying him don't sometimes. Ok tap to the side didn't work kick a bit harder, then harder you get the idea. Victoria's methods don't do the kind of damage his do when used by amateurs

Kazuko · April 2011

Anything can be done wrong. Anything can be harmful in the wrong hands.

danae11 · April 2011

Yes even clicker training can go wrong and do damage to dogs. But harsh methods or dominance training have more potential to do damage than positive methods especially to sensitive dogs. My parents had an english springer that would completely shut down if you even raised your voice to him, never abused just very sensitive, using old-style methods would have broken him completely.

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Victoria Stillwell or Cesar Millan?

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