My American Saddlebred Mare

Garnet · July 2010

Wow.. Ive riden Vampy's mare before but i never knew there could be that much wrong with a horse... If i sent you a picture of my AQH could you like.. "review" her or something and tell me what all is good/bad about her before I ask my grandma to breed her?

Jackdaw · July 2010

Garnet wrote:

Wow.. Ive riden Vampy's mare before but i never knew there could be that much wrong with a horse... If i sent you a picture of my AQH could you like.. "review" her or something and tell me what all is good/bad about her before I ask my grandma to breed her?

I could definitely do that for you.

Although, I'm not an expert or anything. If you want a really thorough critique the people on the FISH boards are much more knowledgeable than I am.

reina__ · July 2010

Well we can't do much about it now.. like Vamp said. We have to suck it up she is officially preggo.

Garnet · July 2010

Jackdaw wrote:

Garnet wrote:

Wow.. Ive riden Vampy's mare before but i never knew there could be that much wrong with a horse... If i sent you a picture of my AQH could you like.. "review" her or something and tell me what all is good/bad about her before I ask my grandma to breed her?

 I could definitely do that for you. Although, I'm not an expert or anything. If you want a really thorough critique the people on the FISH boards are much more knowledgeable than I am.

FISH boards? What's that? I didn't know which pics to show you so I put a few just in case.. From different angles and such.. So, I made a new post all together so that i wouldnt intrude on vampy's post here >.>

Minx · July 2010

Im not breeding to have a halter horse or even a preformance horse. I want to raise the foal and train it. A foal that is my foal and not my brothers. And i TRIED buying a foal. MY dad will NOT go for that as we cant afford it. The studding as free and a birthday present so there is no way i can "not pay for the stud fee and buy a foal with it". I understand that the foal will never be a perfect halter or showhorse. I mostly want a trail horse or halter horse and i think a foal from them would work fine. Besides i know the 2 horses i bred have AMAZING attitudes. The first foal from her we have is LITERALLY a big puppy =3. And i dont plan on breeding the foal and i am trying to save enough money to get a halter horse. SHE will hopefully be one of the horses i base my ApHA breeding lines off of

Minx · July 2010

Jackdaw wrote:

Garnet wrote:

 

Jackdaw wrote:

These horses are very mediocre examples of their breeds (if you are interested in learning, I will try to explain to you exactly what aspects of their conformation is undesirable and why.)

 I'm curious. What did you mean by this? Like, what's so "mediocre" about those horses? 0.0 They look fine to me (I'm not as educated as you are xD) I'm having my grandmothers breeders check my horses over before I have them bred because I know for sure that I don't know what I'd be doing.

 There isn't a decent confo pic of the stud. However, I'll give you a brief run down of the mare's most obvious conformational flaws. Here is an example of a breeding quality, pinto, ASB. You will note, this horse bares absolutely no resemblance to the OP's mare. <a href="http://www.summertimefarm.com/winter-halter.jpg"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://www.summertimefarm.com/winter-halter.jpg</a> The defining feature of the ASB is it's long, graceful, arched neck. The horse that I posted has a lovely, shapely neck. It ties into his chest well. He also has a nice, clean throat-latch. The OP's mare, on the other hand, has a neck that is barely longer than her head. It has no shape, no definition. It appears to be slightly ewed. It culminates into a coarse head with a small eye. Her neck ties in very low. There is no definition between where her neck stops and her chest begins. The horse that I posted has a nice shoulder. It is sloping and well-laid back. This would make him a smooth, enjoyable ride. The OP's filly has a slightly upright shoulder. This may make her movement 'choppy' and harder to sit. Here is a wonderful article explaining shoulder angle and slope. <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/applesonhorses/confo-not-home/shoulder-slopes-and-angles"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://sites.google.com/site/applesonho ... and-angles</a> I can't see the OP's filly's back. However, judging from her over-all lack of muscle definition, I would assume that her back muscles have not been developed correctly and that she does not have the smoothest top-line. The horse that I posted has nice, straight front legs. He has a long, well-muscled forearm and short cannons with plenty of bone. He is standing in the classic 'parked out' Saddlebred pose. However, you can see if he were squared up, that his front legs would be straight. The OP's mare's hind legs are 'camped out' or 'sickle hocked' (meaning they are too long proportionately.). Her legs also rotate out, front and back. She is splay footed in front and cow-hocked behind (This may, in part, be due to the fact that she is badly in need of a trim. ). Crooked legs put undue stress on joints and tendons (as does improper or non-existent farrier work.). A horse with crooked legs is much more likely to suffer from some sort of un-soundness. See- <a href="http://www.ag.auburn.edu/~schmisp/ansc1000/horse-front-leg.jpg"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://www.ag.auburn.edu/~schmisp/ansc1 ... nt-leg.jpg</a> <a href="http://www.ag.auburn.edu/~schmisp/ansc1000/horse-rear-leg.jpg"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://www.ag.auburn.edu/~schmisp/ansc1 ... ar-leg.jpg</a> The OP's mare has a very, very short hip. She will not have the drive from behind, the fast start, or the impulsion of a horse that has a nice long hip. While I'd like to see a longer hip on the horse that I posted (stock horse person. XD); it is still much stronger proportionately than the mare's. The Op's horse has absolutely no gaskin to speak of. Not only is her second thigh short, but it lacks any semblance of muscle tone. ...... A horse should be proportionate. It should be able to fit 'in a box'. It's shoulder, barrel and hip should be relatively the same length. <a href="http://www.freewebs.com/mmm202/Illus2A.jpg"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://www.freewebs.com/mmm202/Illus2A.jpg</a> ...... Overall, the OP's mare is quite far from the breed standard and a less than stellar example of her breed. Ergo, not breeding quality. ..... If you are still interested in learning more, I can give you some links to websites that would do a better job explaining the basics of conformation than I ever could.

Thank you so much. I know she isnt a perfect horse but what horse is? *besides a world champion halter horse* And with her "choppy" movement... believe it or not she is gaited. She's kinda fat looking cuz she has been in pasture for like... 4 or 5 years. She isnt registered. We GUESS that she is a saddlebred. So breed standard isnt really adequate here. This foal probably isnt gonna be ridden more than a pleasure horse or a barrel horse if its lucky so im not too worried about its conformation affecting proformance

Minx · July 2010

Garnet wrote:

Celia, I see your concern - and no, Robin, I promise I'm not purposefully going against you here - but Celia, Robin (Vampy) does need these guys advice. I dont think anyone is really "attacking" her about it. Sure, a few things could have been said differently, but it is all facts that she needs to know.. Jack is right Robin, conformation is important in any horse. No matter what you are using it for. I know QH's are bred for certain things.. Crossing a saddle-bred and a QH may not be that great of an idea.. Last thing Im gonna say in this post. To both Robin and the people replying to her, the horses have already been bred, no matter what you all say, the foal WILL be born. What happens after that, no one knows yet. We have to wait and see after it's born. It could be a great horse. No one knows for sure. Also: 

Jackdaw wrote:

These horses are very mediocre examples of their breeds (if you are interested in learning, I will try to explain to you exactly what aspects of their conformation is undesirable and why.)

 I'm curious. What did you mean by this? Like, what's so "mediocre" about those horses? 0.0 They look fine to me (I'm not as educated as you are xD) I'm having my grandmothers breeders check my horses over before I have them bred because I know for sure that I don't know what I'd be doing.

Garn. I know the conformation of the two horses. U know shelby is not as thick as she looks in those pictures. Im quite aware of it actually. My brother has a QH foal from this mare already and she is a WONDERFUL train horse and nothing scares her. THATS what i want. U know sahara is an AMAZINGLY sweet girl and i want a foal that acts like she does.

Jackdaw · July 2010

VampireVenom wrote:

Im not breeding to have a halter horse or even a preformance horse. I want to raise the foal and train it. A foal that is my foal and not my brothers.

Did you even read my post? It doesn't appear to me that you did, so I will repeat myself-

You should NEVER breed a poor quality animal just because you think you will keep it 'forever'. Do you have any idea how many people have bred a horse with the intention of never selling it; only to have something happen in their life that forces them to do just that? The slaughter house is full of horses that someone swore they would 'keep forever'. You should always breed responsibly. It shouldn't matter what the horse's intended purpose is.

VampireVenom wrote:

And i TRIED buying a foal. MY dad will NOT go for that as we cant afford it. The studding as free and a birthday present so there is no way i can "not pay for the stud fee and buy a foal with it".

If you cannot afford to buy a foal, you can not afford to breed a foal. Did you give the slightest bit of consideration to the costs of breeding your mare? The average amount spent on vet care alone through the duration of the pregnancy would be more than enough to buy a decent quality, registrable foal that would be much more suitable to your needs. That is assuming nothing goes wrong with the pregnancy. What do you plan to do if the foaling doesn't go smoothly? The vet bills can easily run into the thousands for even relatively minor problems. What if you lose the mare? The foal? Both?

VampireVenom wrote:

Besides i know the 2 horses i bred have AMAZING attitudes. The first foal from her we have is LITERALLY a big puppy =3.

Just because a horse is sweet, doesn't mean they need to be bred. There are thousands of horses destined for slaughter that also have 'amazing' attitudes. A good temperament is important but it is only one of MANY things you should take into consideration before you breed. I don't care how sweet a horse is, if it has poor conformation it should not be bred. Also, according to your other posts, your mare doesn't even have that nice of a temperament! Any horse that charges you in the pasture or tries to kick you needs to spend some serious time working on ground manners.

VampireVenom wrote:

And with her "choppy" movement... believe it or not she is gaited.

A gaited horse can still have choppy movement. Just because a horse can gait doesn't mean it necessarily gaits well.

VampireVenom wrote:

She's kinda fat looking cuz she has been in pasture for like... 4 or 5 years.

Why was she unhandled for five years? Did you lose interest in her? In riding? Horses in general? What happens if you lose interest in your new foal? Would he/she go out to pasture for five years as well?

VampireVenom wrote:

We GUESS that she is a saddlebred. So breed standard isnt really adequate here.

No matter what breed she is, there are basic conformation principles that apply to all horses; being well proportioned, having strong legs, having an over-all smooth and balanced appearance. Compare her to whatever breed standard you like, she still won't be near breeding quality.

Garnet · July 2010

VampireVenom wrote:

Garnet wrote:

Celia, I see your concern - and no, Robin, I promise I'm not purposefully going against you here - but Celia, Robin (Vampy) does need these guys advice. I dont think anyone is really "attacking" her about it. Sure, a few things could have been said differently, but it is all facts that she needs to know.. Jack is right Robin, conformation is important in any horse. No matter what you are using it for. I know QH's are bred for certain things.. Crossing a saddle-bred and a QH may not be that great of an idea.. Last thing Im gonna say in this post. To both Robin and the people replying to her, the horses have already been bred, no matter what you all say, the foal WILL be born. What happens after that, no one knows yet. We have to wait and see after it's born. It could be a great horse. No one knows for sure. Also: 

Jackdaw wrote:

These horses are very mediocre examples of their breeds (if you are interested in learning, I will try to explain to you exactly what aspects of their conformation is undesirable and why.)

 I'm curious. What did you mean by this? Like, what's so "mediocre" about those horses? 0.0 They look fine to me (I'm not as educated as you are xD) I'm having my grandmothers breeders check my horses over before I have them bred because I know for sure that I don't know what I'd be doing.

 Garn. I know the conformation of the two horses. U know shelby is not as thick as she looks in those pictures. Im quite aware of it actually. My brother has a QH foal from this mare already and she is a WONDERFUL train horse and nothing scares her. THATS what i want. U know sahara is an AMAZINGLY sweet girl and i want a foal that acts like she does.

Harah is an amazing little girl. besides kicking me when she was younger *mutters* lol yea, Shelby has toned up quite a bit from these pics actually 0.0 but i aint seen her in like.. two months xD

Minx · July 2010

Jackdaw. Lets just agree that what we look for in breeding horses *at least this foal* is different and be nice. Your horses are yours and mine and mine, and im looking for a good temperment. If u wanna keep trying to tell me how my horses are flawed then go ahead but im not gonna reply. You said yourself your own horses are not to your own standards so you stick to correcting yours and ill work on training mine.

Jackdaw · July 2010

VampireVenom wrote:

Jackdaw. Lets just agree that what we look for in breeding horses *at least this foal* is different and be nice. Your horses are yours and mine and mine, and im looking for a good temperment. If u wanna keep trying to tell me how my horses are flawed then go ahead but im not gonna reply. You said yourself your own horses are not to your own standards so you stick to correcting yours and ill work on training mine.

I love how you avoid answering any of the questions that I ask. :roll: I have no problem with your horses as riding/pleasure horses. Ride them, have fun with them, that's great. Yes, my horses aren't perfectly conformed. They're also geldings. You can have as poorly conformed and un-athletic a horse as you want, more power to you for supporting such an animal. My problem comes when you breed it. It is generally selfish, ignorant and irresponsible for you to breed any horse that- a. Is unregistered b. Is untrained c. Is poorly conformed d. Has no performance record. e. Or any combination there of. Any knowledgeable horse person would agree. However, the only thing you care about are your own wants. You aren't breeding for soundness, athletic ability, even temperament. You are only breeding because you decided on a whim that you wanted a foal and you just happen to have this mare. There really is no reasoning with you. Your entire argument is basically this- BUT I WANT A FOAL. I hope someday you can become a mature responsible horse owner. Or at least grow out of your 'horse phase'. Until then, I guess we'll just have to deal with heralding yet another BYB into the world.

Minx · July 2010

Jackdaw wrote:

VampireVenom wrote:

Jackdaw. Lets just agree that what we look for in breeding horses *at least this foal* is different and be nice. Your horses are yours and mine and mine, and im looking for a good temperment. If u wanna keep trying to tell me how my horses are flawed then go ahead but im not gonna reply. You said yourself your own horses are not to your own standards so you stick to correcting yours and ill work on training mine.

 I love how you avoid answering any of the questions that I ask. :roll: I have no problem with your horses as riding/pleasure horses. Ride them, have fun with them, that's great. Yes, my horses aren't perfectly conformed. They're also geldings. You can have as poorly conformed and un-athletic a horse as you want, more power to you for supporting such an animal. My problem comes when you breed it. It is generally selfish, ignorant and irresponsible for you to breed any horse that- a. Is unregistered b. Is untrained c. Is poorly Conformed d. Has no performance record. e. Or any combination there of. Any knowledgeable horse person would agree. However, the only thing you care about are your own wants. You aren't breeding for soundness, athletic ability even temperament. You are only breeding because you decided on a whim that you wanted a foal and you just happen to have this mare. There really is no reasoning with you. Your entire argument is basically this- BUT I WANT A FOAL. I hope someday you can become a mature responsible horse owner. Or at least grow out of your 'horse phase'. Until then, I guess we'll just have to deal with heralding yet another BYB into the world.

My mare is trained. The only reason she's been out in pasture is her owner lives 3 or 4 hours away and he would never let me ride her. She's one of the best train riding horses ive ever seen. She'll do anything you ask of her whether its jumping water or running down a straight ledge. Her first foal is the exact same way. Thats what i want from this foal. I dont just want a horse. I want a good trail riding horse so i dont have to ride my show horses down trails and possibly have them hurt because they dont know how to handle trails like a trail trained horse would *going over them enough to know and go over obstacles* A pleasure horse doesnt need to be registered or shown. And conformation isnt THAT important in trail riding. I understand that it is a good thing. I just see why it is TOTALLY necessary to have it on a pleasure horse as long as it isnt being ridden extremely hard. I know about conformation. Ive judged halter competitions and ive shown in them too. Im willing to sacrafice a little bit of conformation *not enough that i believe it will interfere with the horses life or happiness* to insure that i have a horse that is willing to go over trails instead of buying a horse that is scared of everything i do and woulnt trail at all and i personally want a gelding from her. Ive ridden mostly geldings my entire life. So there is no reason to be bashing. I am breeding for a certain cause. Its just different that yalls. The conformation isnt PERFECT but its not that bad either. Both horses are free from diseases and im good health, and they both have temperments that i want for a trail horses and the willingness to achieve it. Tada! What im looking for. Good Healthy Well Minded Trail Foal. Just because my foal woulnt be a supermodel doesnt mean it woulnt be a good smart horse. Jackdaw. Im REALLY not trying to get on your bad side. Trust me im not. But i just think you and i have different reasons for breeding certain foals. This is the ONLY foal i intend on breeding UNTIL i get my halter appaloosa and after she has shown a few years and being bred to a halter stallion. However ive still got 800$ to go til i can afford her and if something happens to the pregnancy of this foal ill dip into what i have saved and be down even more. But itll be worth it to me. Im not being a BYB... im just producing ONE foal using horses i know will produce what im looking for. Thats what EVERYONE does. But what im looking for isnt what everyone who is bashing me looks for.

RoyalRaccoon · July 2010

I haven't read the entire thing, mostly just this page. I don't know a lot about breeding horses and their conformation either, so bear with me. I agree with both sides to some degree. I just don't think accusing VampireVenom of being a BYB was called for. You're entitled to believe what ever you want, but it would have been more appropriate to keep something like that to yourself, or off public forums at least. You obviously disagree with her, and she has obviously made up her mind, so the best choice would be to agree to disagree at this point.

reina__ · July 2010

Well Vamp, *sigh Just pray nothing goes wrong, and that the foal is exactly what you want. But honestly, with all breeding, breeding is all by chance. Even out of completely amazingly conformed and temperamented parents, the offspring could be a freak and totally not what was expected. Believe me..lol. I agree with Jackdaw in some days, but being passionate about a certain subject isn't an excuse to be rude. She doesn't know your whole situation, and maybe you said some things wrong, maybe you didn't. Maybe half the things you said are bringing in assumption. Remember most forums on the internet have something about someone doing something "wrong" and it's not really against you as a person but more about your beliefs or actions. I admit, I have freaked out at people who breed dogs like nobody's business, so I know where Jackdaw's coming from, just not in a horse sense. Thing is, when you breed a dog, you can't keep all the puppies. When you breed a horse, its very unlikely there will be more than 1 baby. Although, you don't ride dogs. I'm just babbling now. I get Jackdaw, but I also get you. Maybe you should have researched more, but I'm no one to tell you that. I always thought though that people who breed should rescue as well. I'm done.

ShesTheManROX · July 2010

I'm not butting in or causing anything, but I've seen posts like this before, and the things people are 'bashing' about could be taken in other contexts too. I don't think it's right to say that these horses should never be bred because they're 'bad', it's like saying someone with a family of History of Downs shouldnt have a child cause the child might come out with problems, in this context it's purely harsh and uncalled for, and I think it should be applied to this situation. she wants a 'child' [foal], and she will deal with the consiquences, shes not going to go to an orphanage to adop a child because there is an abudance of them she is having the child because it will be hers... Not starting anything.. I just think it should be looked at differently.

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My American Saddlebred Mare

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