Reseting the Game

WerewolfPointers · November 2004

I know it may be a little harsh but I am sick and tired of looking of the community bulletin board and reading [puppies for sale, nice puppies, please buy, etc]. Most of the time, they are no better than mutts cause their parents weren't trained, nothing was trained and therefore they are horrible. Wolves, Border Collies, Great Danes, Pit-bulls [so/so], German Shepherds, and a couple of other breeds are so bred out and the average so horrible that they are not even worth bothering with by a serious breeder since most don't want to pay the extra little bit of money for GOOD dogs. I think that the game should be reset, with lesser breeding turns [3 to 5 a week, and then maybe reset every week or two weeks] for novices & maybe more money, 100k like in VHR so that they can afford to have their dogs trained. I'd be more than happy to reset if I know that then, there would actually be GOOD dogs out there on average.

Alana · November 2004

Well I doubth that ppl not spending money on having pups trianed now will even with more money, they will most likely just buy more pups and then were back were we started. I have worked hard to get my second generation of Dobies really good and I am a novice so it wasnt a walk on roses exactly and I only got pups from maxed out parents and they are all show winners so why on earth would I wanna give that up? if I want a great pup I will contact a serious breeder or take what I find on the market and do my best with it. plus you get 25 breeding period as a novice now, after that you aint getting any more so why would you wanna renew the novice breedings weekly? wouldnt that sort of work against the goal you had with resetting things?

Oreo · November 2004

yeah. Reset no fun. People lose their hard work. Whats the point of a game where you have to lose all your hard work?

SableAntelope · November 2004

Like I said at legnth in another thread people have a right to breed whatever dogs they want. It's their account. How is it anyone's business other than their own? If you don't like the dogs, DON'T BUY THEM! I can tell you what I'm sick of, I'm sick of people with holier-than-thou attitudes thinking they have a right to put down other players and tell people what they should and shouldn't breed and how they should and shouldn't play. If you don't like how someone runs their kennel don't do business with them, simple as that. Otherwise if they aren't breaking any rules leave them alone. They have as much right to play this game as anyone else.

Meina · November 2004

I totally agree with SableAntelope. This is a strategy game, and people are allowed to do whatever they want with their breedings. I only buy pups that have stats that meet breed standards, and you probably do the same. So just pride yourself on having strong, reliable dogs and disregard others who do differently.

BluegumAussieBulldog · November 2004

I agree aswell. And that is why I sell my dogs cheap, so ppl who cannot afford well bred dogs from other kennels, can buy them off me. Pups are never over $500.

Anonymous · November 2004

Nef made a similar post on VHR & there was no complaints there. That was running for over a year. This has been going for what, 5 months?

Oreo · November 2004

more like 3 Months. The rest of the months were beta months.

Anonymous · November 2004

The sponsers of course, would keep their accounts. But otherwise the game is ruined cause of extreme breeding. There are 148145 horses in VHR by over a year. 27227 in 3 months here. That is a LOT of breeding

Meina · November 2004

Your point wasn't proven. According to your statistics, there would be 108,908 dogs in VP in one year compared to the around 148,000 horses in VHR in one year.

SableAntelope · November 2004

Besides a horse has one foal at a time in VHR, here you have 2-6 puppies at a time. Of course it's going to populate sequencially instead of nominally.

Anonymous · November 2004

I'm not sure that this was an issue in the growth of population, but I was watching the # of dogs on main page-where it shows latest member and show and growth was much slower before the crash. I think once the compensation dogs are used, things will settle to some degree. As other find the game, there will be some growth spurts esp with those new to game who thing just breeding with carry them through until some learn to use the release option on pups-Does anyone every use that? I've bred 2 litters since I've been in game, August, I'd like to finish training what I have (new pups), but I keep finding some real diamonds in the rough from others who bred or buy then find out that this game isn't always about breeding, buying and selling-it involves a bit more to do well. Fwiw, bree

SableAntelope · November 2004

I don't understand how the number of dogs correlates to the 'ruining' of the game anyways. How does the number of dogs in the game effect any one player's game play?

Anonymous · November 2004

How does the number of dogs in the game effect any one player's game play?> It doesn't ruin game, and as long as most don't do a dang thing with their dogs, it has a small effect on the serious competitor who may pick up a gem cheap to shine brightly in thier kennel either in sport or breeding program. Seems one issue if I am recalling correctly in original post was # of dogs. My point was population had a surge due to gift dogs some received, then add in new players. Quite frankly rescue is not really an issue since dogs do not die or are affected as result of abuse such as lack of food, water, shelter or severe physical injury and there is not dog pound to dump them at or release to fend on it's own. As someone, perhaps you pointed out, someone's ethics are their own business and it's just a game. I was commenting on the current # of dogs in game. As for resetting game, I lost a bunch of fame, money and my novice account is still trying to get a dog back from Nef after crash, no way do I want to completely start over. Bree, who currently has 3 Springers and a Pointer taking up the couch and loveseat and yes, local ESS and Pointer rescue contact-we do rescue.

Jinxx · November 2004

SableAntelope wrote:

I don't understand how the number of dogs correlates to the 'ruining' of the game anyways. How does the number of dogs in the game effect any one player's game play?

If you're playing not only to compete dogs but breeding as well then yes, number of dogs/certain breed can affect one's game play. Costs go down, in some cases way down...you can sit on a litter forever, even a very good litter, because there are a bazillion on the market. This is a place for opinions and just as you feel people have the right to play they way they want, people have the right to post their opinions on the way others play. Maybe you don't feel a crunch with only 4 dingos on the sales market and 12k being the lowest priced..but others feel the crunch..others have lost 'business' and watched the market drop from under them because of people who breed their dogs like they're making popcorn. (and badly made popcorn at that). I don't think a reset is the way to go, I've worked too hard to get what I have..for what I've helped friends have but I don't think it's wrong for Werewolf or anyone else to be upset with things and post their opinions. Werewolf...maybe work towards educating players. *rolls eyes* Not that that works 90% of the time..either their brains don't absorb what they're shown or they insist on being

about it. I no longer sell pups that aren't maxxed, I'd rather sit on a litter then chance someone having a wolf and only turning it to breeding age to crank out pups. I've started A.W.A. and A.W.A.R.E. in hopes of educating players...and we have. Several players have changed the way they 'game play' because of them. I know it's frustrating to no end and I'm with you on the way some people play...but VP is a game, a strategy game at that..so I've chosen my strategy---to help who I can, to educate those that can be educated and to have fun playing. :P

Anonymous · November 2004

<This is a place for opinions and just as you feel people have the right to play they way they want, people have the right to post their opinions on the way others play. Maybe you don't feel a crunch with only 4 dingos on the sales market and 12k being the lowest priced..but others feel the crunch..others have lost 'business' and watched the market drop from under them because of people who breed their dogs like they're making popcorn. (and badly made popcorn at that). > Ok, yeah, I've noticed that, certain breeds going for top prices then bottom falling out. I wanted a Greyhound, picked a nice enough one up from market cheap, picked up another couple, then the fame point super dogs came into play and "speed breeds" went thru the roof. I sat back and now once again picking up decent dogs at great prices. Admittedly WRT breeding, not an issue for me since here, as in real life, I breed for what I want/need,I don't breed to breed or profit- 3 of my kennels are on infamous top kennel list,my 4th is my puppy center with limited time spentplaying game lately due to my dad's cancer worsening and his passing last Tues. Bree-I think I forgot to log in AGAIN-LOL

SableAntelope · November 2004

'Educating players', as in harassing them to play the way you want them to play? Hmmm... I don't agree with the attitude most 'rescues' have in this game. For all the showboating the folks who run the 'rescues' do, if they spent as much time and effort to volunteer with, fundraise for, educate about, and work with real dogs in need as they do to bitch and moan about how people treat database entries on here I might take them more seriously. And that's my opinion since this is the "place for opinions". It's not a very flattering one but it's only mine, I know lots of people on here would disagree. Besides business is business, we've got a market economy here. If you are sitting a "good litter" that you can't sell either a.) it can't be that good or else people would want it or b.) there's no demand good or otherwise. In which case your carefully breed whatevers are just as surplus as 20 $1 mutts. If you want to make money in a game like this where it is a user directed market you have to bow before the almighty supply and demand. If you want a litter you know will sell breed four star speed greyhounds. Or the new in like neopolitan mastiffs or whatever is hot at the moment. The market values increase and bottom out at the crazy break neck speed it does around here because to control the factors of production all you have to do is click a mouse. It means you have to be enterprising in your business. The size of the supply-heavy market doesn't automatically mean a stalled market, it's means a selective market. With no potential for any actual harm or loss laze faire is fine for VP I think. If you want to be a multi millionaire you have to be an entrepurnerer(whatever spelling *L*), you gotta work at it. If you just want to breed the best dogs you can do that with what you are given to start with. Not being able to sell a 'good' litter isn't absolutely the fault of there being too many dogs. It's because there's unlimited production possibilty, or darn near close, at the moment so every consumer is also a producer and can be as selective as they want. Will that change when non-sponsor folks run out of breedings? Not likely because every puppy produced inturn becomes a puppy producer. So you're going to have a selective supply defined(though it seems demand defined at first glance) market forever and ever amen. In other words as the game runs now if you want to sell your puppies you have to be a smart producer, not just one of the few producers. (which is what the case would be if the amount of dogs was the only issue) And bree I'm so sorry about your father. I'm in the final stretch of a long treatment of chemo and I know I am very, very lucky to be facing good news at the end of it all.

Jinxx · November 2004

'Educating players', as in harassing them to play the way you want them to play? Hmmm...

No one is harassing anyone..except maybe the a-holes that have to be smart *&& on the game.

I don't agree with the attitude most 'rescues' have in this game. For all the showboating the folks who run the 'rescues' do, if they spent as much time and effort to volunteer with, fundraise for, educate about, and work with real dogs in need as they do to bitch and moan about how people treat database entries on here I might take them more seriously.

I work with real animals..every day. And in real life I try to educate when I can as well, I donate money, I've taken strays off the streets and taken them immediately to the vet and/or shelter...paying for medical care out of my own pocket and I've taken in rescues. I take real 'live' animals very seriously, all animals. Today I had to care for two litters of rats..so closely related (generation after generation) that they're all blind, one is missing it's eyes and two can only open their eyes a sliver..it's disgusting a 'breeder' could do this to get a double rex (aka..hairless). Don't assume.

If you are sitting a "good litter" that you can't sell either a.) it can't be that good or else people would want it or b.) there's no demand good or otherwise. In which case your carefully breed whatevers are just as surplus as 20 $1 mutts. If you want to make money in a game like this where it is a user directed market you have to bow before the almighty supply and demand. If you want a litter you know will sell breed four star speed greyhounds. Or the new in like neopolitan mastiffs or whatever is hot at the moment. The market values increase and bottom out at the crazy break neck speed it does around here because to control the factors of production all you have to do is click a mouse. It means you have to be enterprising in your business. The size of the supply-heavy market doesn't automatically mean a stalled market, it's means a selective market.

There's no demand because people are putting out pups like they're candy and putting them on the market at super low prices..in some cases $0-50. When a market has the same pups on it for weeks then it's stalled..not selective. And some do sit on 'good litters' because there are way to many pups out there, again..don't assume. I don't depend on breeding to make money on here, I train, I show and run events but it is frustrating when someone who doesn't know better buys a $10 under-average pup off the market then doesn't look at the good litters because they 'have their new dog' and when you get lots of players doing this then it's a bust for others. And as for the 'game', if the database entry wasn't supposed to 'feel' anything then we wouldn't need the mood bar or energy bar..the 'virtual' dog can go on for ever and ever, never tire and never get too depressed to do something for it's owner. But Nef has made it so the database entries 'feel' something.

Bree · November 2004

<I don't depend on breeding to make money on here, I train, I show and run events but it is frustrating when someone who doesn't know better buys a $10 under-average pup off the market then doesn't look at the good litters because they 'have their new dog' and when you get lots of players doing this then it's a bust for others. And as for the 'game', if the database entry wasn't supposed to 'feel' anything then we wouldn't need the mood bar or energy bar..the 'virtual' dog can go on for ever and ever, never tire and never get too depressed to do something for it's owner. But Nef has made it so the database entries 'feel' something.> _________________ But to me, the emotions of VP dogs is basically a tool to use for training-My take something the game was based around, train,condition and enter events to make a competitive dog. This is not a game of education persay and ethics. Altho I think it can teach some that you just can't make it big on breeding low stat dogs w/no skills, that is if they even care. If it were possible to have handler status and events, I'd gladly hold shows for those who have entered less than a few hundred events with dirt cheap entries so they can get addicted to the fun of events and hopefully work their dogs to continue to better stats/skills. Offering junior events cheap doesn't always encourage newbies since most competitors usually have an almost max pup waiting in the wings or gear JR events towards what they want to enter which would in most cases beat a newbie (esp one who'd dog isn't maxed) thus discouraging a number just not to enter. Am I saying what I mean clearly? Sometimes I can't get my point across first try-LOL As I said previously, the "abuse" ie dogs need brushing or depressed usually are not something Animal Reg will respond to in real life if basic needs are cover-food, water and shelter. Kids and dogs, you can't tell someone else how to raise em as long as basic needs and no cruelity (sp) is occuring. Bree

Bree · November 2004

Sable, major congrats on being a winner with your health. I know those who are cancer survivers traveled a long and at times, dark road to success. Great accomplishment!!!! I drew strength and realilistic expectations from a number of survivers and those who past before. It was and continues to be a source of comfort, education and support. As far as harassment, if people want to put their rescue and education mantra on their personal pages, so be it, I think it does little-people going back and forth bantering this accomplishes nothing. My thoughts are best bet would be through mentoring newbies and making sure they really GET what the game is really about. was it Jinxx how posted about the rats and what a "breeder" did to get something different. That, my friend, is no breeder, that's an oppurtunist (sp), someone wanting to turn a buck or someone uneducated ingenetics of line . Serious breeders first mission is not to cause harm to breed, just improve it as best one can-that's why it's important to know your pedigrees in real life-good, bad and plain ugly things lurking. Granted, those buried recessive genes will pop up from time to time, but little on can do about it w/o genetic markers and all know genetic issues within a breed. Bree, I think I've rambled enough

Meina · November 2004

Bree, congrats on logging in (and not posting as a guest)! And Sable, MAJOR congrats on surviving cancer. But once again, this is a strategy game, and some rescues believe that training cheap, unwanted dogs and then selling is a good strategy. Often times it pays off. I bought an unwanted great dane for $20, trained it for $5,000, and sold it for $30,000. That's a $24,980 profit, and you're doing a good thing.

Bree · November 2004

RoadG, Most my BCs (except one), think all Greyhounds and all GSD I got for free to 100.00-Springers as well (one ESs was my own foundling however). I think I have one or 2 BCs I paid a little more for one other BC due toreally good stats. I cannnot remember how much I paid for my 1st BC, but he wasn't an outragous amount. I don't see buying those older untrained dogs as rescue really when they are sold again for a profit and usually intact, not neutered/desexed. I can tell you NO unaltered animals leave my house either rescue dogs or rehomed show stock. Most rescues and a good number of shelters do not allow intact animals into new home as well. I have also never made $ on a rescue in real life`esp after vet, training that went into it, grooming, food, ect-even if done in house or at discount. Additional donations as in fund raisers, cash donations, people giving of their time and expertise, ect are what keep rescue going. Also, there are those dogs that are unadoptable, that's an entirely different and long discussion, esp since we have no option to humanely release dogs in game and severe aggression/ medical issues are also not part of game. I rarely sell dogs in game due to my own ethics and what lurks out there (traded 1 and sold 2 since I began in game), but I do buy for my own string those who some consider "rescue" dogs, however, I don't consider myself a rescue, just someone looking for a diamond in rough. hey, even though I wasn't logged in, I did sign my posts with real name. Bree

Jinxx · November 2004

I don't own the 'rescue' kennel that my A.W.A.R.E. supports but the owner is a good friend of mine in RL. Yes, she charges for what is rescued..and yes, she doesn't neuter all dogs that go through the rescue. But like her I believe some of the wolves that come through are worthy of passing along their stats. That's why AWA and AWARE try to educate people about responsible breeding. The rescue is not out to 'make' money. At the moment, there are trainers who donate training but their help has been dwindling...I don't charge to max for her but I can't keep up with all the rescues so there will come a time when she will have to pay to have that done. All the money the rescue makes has stayed on the kennel except for the purchase/rescue of other wolves and the couple times she's entered some on the wolves in events. Personally, I've paid for others to have wolves off the rescue and I've then offered to max other dogs for them for a drastic discount and at times free. I would even enter a new owner's wolf in events for them if they'd like (if they are low on money). I'm far from greedy..I'm just as happy to see one of the rescued wolves beat my own wolves in events and am forever messaging the rescue's owner with who's made how much and who's gone regional..so and so placed such and such in this event.

Bree · November 2004

Jinxx, I know you are an exceptional player who is a credit to game from your posts here. You encourage others to get in full swing of game. WTG! Can't keep up with the training, got that right, Jinxx! If I every get some of my bargin basement buys done and seems I always find something tempting daily, maybe I can get my own pups done eventually. Yes, some dogs have some great stats, some are foundlings or 1st gen of 2 foundlings of a newbie "going to make it BIG" in breeding. As you stated, there are so many of those who choose not to improve and as in real life, you can't save them all, just the ones with the greatest promise or one is in danger of becoming what's known as a collector which in some ways are worse than the ones who where responsible for dog getting into rescue situation. Collectors get themselves way over their heads then cannot properly care for those in their care usually due to sheer #s they keep, they really believe they are saving a life, but conditions are no better if not poorer in some cases than any mill. I will spare all the details of a number raids in my area, collectors in guise of rescue. More useless info that doesn't apply to game really other than can't keep up with training, home,s ect, will stop babbling once again, Bree

Meina · November 2004

Yes, as bree said Jinxx, you rock. Also, please let AWARE know that I offered to donate training, and only trained one wolf. Let me know if they want me to do more! But I think we have all strayed a bit from moaning and groaning about reseting the game.

Alana · November 2004

Well as far as selling pups I sell mine for around 20-50K and sometimes up at 100K so I probably would make it on only that but not for long since I neuter and train most beofre sold and thereby making sure they wont be breed to low standard males and flooding the market with low standard pups, those I sell for 5K and up so no winnings in that. Ppont being there is a market for great pups but it might take a week or two to find the right buyer

Anonymous · November 2004

Maybe it is TOO HARD for you to understand. It is rather simple. Example, you have over a thousand wolves in the game Jinxx & Angel-pup worked hard to get two rare colors [cayote&white as well as another coloration]. Then you get this nasty little piece of work [who I am not naming] who acts like a little b**** and breeds the colors till they are worthless. Same with other popular breeds.

Bree · November 2004

<Maybe it is TOO HARD for you to understand. It is rather simple. Example, you have over a thousand wolves in the game Jinxx & Angel-pup worked hard to get two rare colors [cayote&white as well as another coloration]. > I do understand your point, however that's a matter of game integrity and ethics and you can't impose your ethics on others since a good number won't listen. with my Pointers, there were only a handful a few months ago. I bred 2 litters, sold 2, traded one, had my stud used 2-3 times before I took my studs off public market (approved dogs from serious breeders only at a reduced fee-mes. me) since the breed was becoming more popular. That meaning protect your stock best you can-no intact dogs sold unless to friends and no public stud. That isn;t gonna do a lot, but it may help some. Bree

AngelPup · November 2004

Yeah, I agree with many of the overbreeding issues stated, and I appreciate all the people here who rescue! I personally have two rescued foundie wolves trained by Jinxx through AWARE, and they have done exceptionally well. I thank all the ppl at AWARE who do not neuter all the rescues, because Resees has improved my bloodlines with his new genes. Personally, even with the reset, I think I've only used less than 10 of my breedings, and I've done very well overall. I suggest people use fewer breedings and use their time to train and event a few choice dogs. It did wonders on my bloodlines! Keep it up, everyone! AP

Meina · November 2004

I don't breed much at all anymore, except for rare friend requests. I earn my money from training, making layouts and personal pics (message me for examples lol) and various other services. I never made much money off breeding anyway. When I do rarely breed, I keep 2-3 of the 4-6 pups. Then I train all the pups I keep, neuter them (except for extremely trustworthy people who reserve a pup) and sell them. This way, my lines don't get ruined, and mostly people who show a lot don't mind neutered dogs.

Hiatusagapintime · November 2004

I think with people on VP buying good, trained/well-bred dogs, the reset is just plain stupid. I just spent 25k on an amazing dog, and I don't want to see that go down the tube. I know someone spent a lot of time training that dog, and for the hours of work that that user put into this specific dog, I'm sure that they would not want to see it wasted, and then have to start again. Just my opinion.

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Reseting the Game

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