Old Ways

Patty · January 2012

Looks like she's done it again. My dog-aggressive Australian Cattle Dog strikes. BOOM. Right out the door. Racing down into the street and attacks my neighbor's little white dog. Like they didn't already hate us enough from last time when this happened. Allie went to training for 4 months straight. We've been working with her on aggression for years. The results were amazing. She's been an angel. Until now, out of the blue. The little white dog is sprinting around the man, trying to get away. He falls down, my dog sprint's around the guy. Then I see a white object fly. I thought it was part of the dog. But, it was a styrofoam cup. It happened so fast. So incredibly fast. I ran out the door to retrieve my dog. Given I had surgery earlier today, and am very sore. I could hardly get my dog. Oh, she looked very ashamed. I screamed at her. I'm such a bad owner. It made her more ashamed. I dropped her on the ground inside and went back to the man. Helped him up. His dog was wagging his tail, unharmed. No blood drawn. Obviously it scared all of us to death. Now I know I'll never be able to completely trust her. I thought I could before. She used to not step foot out of the door without my permission. Today, she didn't even respond. If someone randomly rang my doorbell and said they were here to euthanize my dog, I would be more than willing to hand her over. And, I think that's what we might end up doing. I want other people to feel safe. Plus, she totally stresses me out. I know I shouldn't have yelled. I know exactly what I did wrong. I don't need anyone to tell me. I've been wanting to blame my neighbors Plott Hound. The reason my dog is aggressive in the first place, but, that was several years ago, so, I've moved on. Six hours post surgery spent chasing down my dog. She's not going to last much longer.

Mileysmybaby · January 2012

CallyKats Dachshunds · January 2012

I don't mean to sound too rude, but I find this ridiculous... I don't think the dog needs put down, I think it needs an owner that can understand what precautions need to be taken and have the time to socialize the dog more so that she doesn't even have the thought in her mind that she needs to chase your neighbour's little white dog.

KittKattize · January 2012

Reminds me of my old Australian Cattle Dog. Not only was he dog-aggressive, but people-aggressive too. We couldn't even have family come over. Sometimes it's the breeding, they can be very temperamental dogs. Plus, keeping them inside all day or even with constant exercise they don't get the outlet they need. They were bred to her cattle and therefore have tons of energy and a temperament designed to do just that. We ended up having to put him down, despite the months and months of training we spent on him. Perhaps, finding a farm for her to live on and be trained to do what she was bred to do would be better. That way you know she'll be well cared for and live a long and happy life instead of you stressing and wondering if someone is going to come and take her away.

Erra · January 2012

KittKattize · January 2012

I would also like to add, that we did try to bring my old dog to a farm... But he was just way too out of control. The whole litter had been put down because of behavior/temperament issues. The fact he made it to 3 years old was long lived considering his littermates had been put down around the year mark.

Minx · January 2012

Im so sorry Kneecap D;

Horsegirl210 · January 2012

Whaaaat???

Rock_N_Roll_Queen90 · January 2012

=( I'm really sorry Patty. I know how much Allie means to you. PM me if you want to talk about it ok?

Patty · January 2012

I'm still shaking over this, legit. You don't even understand how hard we've worked on her. This is not a safe dog to have in a neighborhood, with children and other dogs. She has a thing for small dogs. All my dogs are larger than she is. Right now we're not focusing on our problem and our dog. Our thoughts and concerns are with our neighbor. I don't care about my dog right now, I really don't. This man has had very serious health problems lately, and instead of thinking about our problems we are praying for his family and health. I'm not up for a big arguement right now, at all. Even if my dog did go live some where else, what is that going to solve? Eventually, there would be a dog some where that she could attack. That would be like handing my problem to someone else. If I had a child that caused the problems, I wouldn't just send it away to someone else. I do not yet have the permission of my family to do anything. But, there's only two things we would even consider. One, euthanasia. Two, keep her and try to work it out. I am willling to spend time and money. I have the time to train, and to get help from a trainer. But, do I have the patience?

CallyKats Dachshunds · January 2012

As long as you can take the time and do what needs to be done to ensure that she's able to live a happy life as a dog in a neighbourhood, she should be absolutely fine. Albeit that there are both small dogs, children, and elderly folk. I know a dog that's extremely aggressive, but as long as he has a handler that takes the leadership role and will correct him (with a muzzle on, I may add), that dog is perfectly fine. Giving her to someone else isn't just giving away your problem as long as you are up-front about any and all of her issues. I, personally, would be more than willing to take her off your hands if I had the means to. At the moment though, I just don't have room for any sort of dog, let alone a herding breed. I think that if you don't have the patience to try and work her through it, that you should give her to somebody that does, or euth her, IMCHO. It'll do her more good resting than with an owner who doesn't have the "patience" to raise her like they should.

Horsegirl210 · January 2012

femalevamp14 wrote:

It'll do her more good resting than with an owner who doesn't have the "patience" to raise her like they should.

Femme, I don't know if you meant it like I think, but knowing Patty, if she had the time to do this, she would (proper training). I know it isn't my place to butt in, but I think that was kind of rude to say. Patty has a lot on her hands, and she loves her dogs, and I'm 110% sure she wants to do what is right for them and everyone around her. Patty wouldn't do anything stupid, I promise. Who knows what will happen. I am not going to respond again, I don't want to start any form of argument.

Patty · January 2012

I don't think I would be willing to have a muzzle on my dog at all times, honestly. The doors tend to open and close a lot here. Plus, I've never seen a dog get more upset over a muzzle. She has ripped her face apart and make herself bleed, just because of one. I've put a lot of time, effort and money into making this dog a good family pet. She's a good dog. Obviously, our family has a decision to make. I really don't need any more personal opinions. No offence to anyone. It is my responsibility to enclose my dog in a room before anyone opens a door. I realize that, and I am going to. They family will most likely be discussing this tonight.

CallyKats Dachshunds · January 2012

I'm not trying to start a fight either, Pumpkin. I do hope everyone notices that I repeatedly said "if", because I don't know Patty or her dog personally. A fenced in yard would/could also do a world of good. I cannot say that you don't have the skill/patience/what have you to deal with this dog, I am only commenting on what I can read over the Internet. I have to say though, that with this being a forum, I may comment where I see fit. If you didn't want anyone else's opinions or comments, you either should have stated such in the original post or not posted at all. What I was saying by what Pumpkin posted, I was stating a mere fact/observation. Patty clearly stated in one of her posts that she may not have the patience to deal with Allie, and I commented on that. It was not mean to be rude in any way, though it was blunt..but, I am a blunt person. I don't know Patty well enough to say if that is just emotions talking, or if she truely meant it. I only commented on the mere statement. Every dog I have met can come to terms in accepting a muzzle, just needs to take the time and figure out what kind of reinforcement works through it best. I will say that I obviously have not had experience with every dog, and that your dog very well may be one of few that absolutely will not accept a muzzle. I truely do not want you to lose your beloved pet, and even though I am very blunt (as is my personality), I have mentioned a few things that could help you work with her and allow her to stay with you. I really do think that a fenced yard would do a world of good, as well as working with her about the muzzle, and most importantly verbal cues (especially heel and lay/sit). My friend's dog will go after the horses viciously, but she will stop whatever she is doing and run back to her owner/handler as soon as he calls her, without question. Verbal cues are a handler's best friend, and I believe all dogs should have that control, even if on a leash. Again, I'm not trying to be rude, condescending, etc. I am only commenting on what I am able to read over the internet, without it showing any type of true emotion. Like I said earlier, I don't know if you just said you may not have the patience because of irrational emotion, or with complete intent.

Patty · January 2012

I didn't post this for people to suggest what I should do, but I have been willing to listen. I have also forced myself not to be offended. I haven't been. Obviously, not knowing me at all and trying to suggest things is difficult. I understand. My plan was not to post this for the thread to get locked. I'm pretty good at controlling myself. ;D Most of the time. Anyway. We do, infact have quite a large fenced in backyard. But, we don't have a protective wall surrounding the property, which sometimes I feel like I should have. Allie never had the problem until she was attacked by the neighbor's Plott Hound. It affected her behavior for a while, and turned into fear aggression. We ended up taking care of that, and she was fine. I know I can't totally change her. But, I know I can change her well enough so that she won't attack, hopefully. I can do it, most likely needing help. But, it would have to be something that would wait. Which, waiting is not ideal. But, it's no small job, I know that.

Trianna · January 2012

I just feel a need to say that your dog wasn't ashamed of what she did, dogs don't feel shame. Shame is a human emotion, and humanizing a dog can cause behavior problems in the animal at times. Perhaps you should try to contact a show like the dog whisperer? While I don't 100% agree with his methods he does seem to know what he's doing and get the job done. As far as getting rid of the dog, it could also work... dogs often act differently with different people, and maybe she wouldn't be dog aggressive with another owner. You could try looking up rescue groups for her breed, maybe they could help. However, if in the end you decide the best option is putting her down, don't feel bad about it. It's much better to be a responsible owner who understands that it's better to have an animal put to sleep before it seriously injures someone than an owner who lets their animal be a danger to others and has it put down after the damage is already done. I do agree with others that there are other options that you should consider before choosing euthanasia, though. You seem very upset right now, understandably so, but it can still cloud your judgement. Making a decision while upset is something best avoided, as it tends to end in regret.

Patty · January 2012

Exactly why we aren't even concerned about the dog right now. But, further problems will be prevented until we do. I do believe, she would be labeled as "dangerous", right now. I'm not saying that couldn't change, it very well could. She's done well in the past with me, and other handler's. She has listened perfected, which is why I am surprised she attacked. I'm actually not considering re-homing. We'll see what happens. I'm just going let it sit for a while. I can't do anything right now abou it. Perhaps I might look into contacting some trainers tomorrow. Don't think I would use any of the Dog Whisper's techniques. XD

Trianna · January 2012

Ya, some things he does make no sense to me, but I agree with the basic "treat a dog like a dog, not a person" philosophy of it... There are other ways to implement that in training though. Have you tried using a head collar for walks? It might keep her a bit calmer and it gives you more control over her head and where she looks. Also, if you can control her, slowly introducing her to other dogs might help. Maybe even just get a cloth with another dogs scent, and let her sniff it then give her treats. Once she's calm with that keep her inside while someone walks a dog by your window, and give her treats when she stays calm, etc. Kinda like exposure therapy for people with phobias. If she's afraid of other dogs and that leads her to attack them you need to show her that other dogs aren't out to get her so she can get over her fear, and make the thought of/ being around other dogs as pleasant an experience for her as possible. It could take a while, but it should be possible. A good trainer really should be a big help, but finding the right trainer will probably take some time. A lot of trainers will say a dog should just be put down for aggression issues, but most of the time they just don't want to deal with it. I'm not a trainer, but my childhood was spent surrounded by dogs, breeders, and trainers. lol. I've dealt with plenty of aggressive, insecure, anxious, and/or fearful dogs, and they've all worked through it. I'm sure your dog can too.

DiamondPuppy0809 · January 2012

I have an 11-year-old Pit Bull mix that is dog-aggressive. Or, at least, used to be. She attacked and killed a toy poodle around four years ago, maybe three. I was walking her and the poodle was barking at us, far from its owner and off leash. The poodle was thirteen years, deaf. There's obviously more to the story but it'd take too long to type it all from my iPhone. She's always been dog-aggressive. She's attacked dogs plenty of times. I've always tried to keep her restrained to the best of my ability. So many people agree that she probably should've been euthanized a long time ago; the animal shelter advised us to have her euthanized. We bought a muzzle instead, as well as a better collar. I keep two leashes on her when I walk her now and have full control. There's no doubt that it's my family's fault she reacts when there's other dogs around, but similar to your dog, Molly was attacked by the neighbor's dog when she was young. It happened multiple times, the dog got into our yard and she had nowhere to go. But it's been a good three years since she's attacked another dog. She's been introduced to about five new dogs and had no issues whatsoever. She's submissive and friendly now. It took the process of three years of persistence and frustration, and the addition of her aging slowing her down slightly, but she's able to be safely around other dogs. Never will I fully trust her, however, because there's no way she's going to obey a voice command if she ever becomes 'locked' into an aggressive state towards another dog. Once a dog-aggressive dog is in that zone, nothing else exists. Many people will probably disagree with our decision to not euthanize her and that's fine. I think you can do it. I think if you've already put a lot of work into her and it has shown results, why can't you do it again? I don't think dog-aggressive dogs can be permanently 'fixed' but they can be improved. She may always have a short moment where she becomes fixated on another dog but as long as she's under your control, you can stop her. I refused to give up on Molly, and even though she's not 'fixed,' she's improved and has had no more bad situations.

Patty · January 2012

Thanks for the suggestions. She's attacked the same dog before. She hasn't attacked for about a year, which I was very happy about, obviously. She gets along fine with the GSDs, and even with our Mudi puppies. She's been fine with every other dog she's seen since. If she looks out the window and sees a dog, her ears go up. She doesn't bark, or growl, nothing. I'm not sure what caused her to go after Simon (the little white dog). I also take Allie up to our local Children's Hospital three times a week to see all the patients. I called the guy today and told him I did feel up to bring Allie today. We continued talking, and I told him what was going on. Then, this 40+ year old man started sobbing, telling me whatever I do, to let her stay. The kids love her so much, and I don't want to take her away from them. What I want more than all, is for her to be safe, happy, for everyone to be happy, for no one to be scared. My neighbors aren't spossed to have to worry about their pets getting attacked. We live in a safe neighborhood, and that's not something they should have to worry about. I love my dog, I want to do what is best. I would love to work with her. And, will work with her more. I've trained all four of my GSDs for S&R, with lot's of success, it took some time. Allie is incredibly smart, extremely high-strung, but loyal. Like you said, she will always listen to me, but when she goes into the attack mode, there's no getting her out. That's something we are going to work on. She did very well for a long time. It's hard with a dog that has so much energy, and is full speed ahead..always. She's five now, I thought she may have slowed dog, a tad, but not at all. She's still her crazed self. But, she'll always be my dog, I am responsible for her, and always will be.

Trianna · January 2012

Perhaps the other dog started it? It's not exactly an excuse for your dog, but she may have been provoked by some cue from the other dog. When I took my dog to my aunts once her female lab attacked him, and she'd never attacked before and never did again. He was still a bit on the neurotic side at that point, and he sent the wrong signal to her, so she was trying to put him in his place. I'm always unsure of smaller dogs, because most of them get treated like babies and that causes them to not act like normal dogs... the dreaded little dog syndrome. How often is she introduced to new dogs? If you can keep her under control completely when she's on leash and there's a dog park (preferably fenced so you could stay outside the fence) take her there and see how she reacts to dogs she's never met, and how they react to her. If she's fine with some dogs and not others it will give you a chance to learn more about the type of dog she reacts to. If she's fine with just about all the dogs, and more importantly they react normally to her, then chances are she doesn't have much of a problem. Also, watch how other dogs react to individuals she seems not to like. If other dogs seem to have adverse reactions to them too then more than likely the issue is with them, if the other dogs seem to be fine with them then it might just be your dog. Only try it if you are sure she won't be able to get away from you at all, preferably with a harness she has no chance of wiggling out of and a long leash attached at the same time as a shorter one (in case she pulls the short leash out of your hand you've still got control with the longer leash). You also need to know a lot about dog body language. If you find out that there's a specific type of dog that she's reactive to then it'll give you a chance to prepare for situations you'll be around that type of dog. You may find out that your dog may not be so much dog aggressive as a bit oversensitive to certain cues from other dogs. Good luck with her, it seems like you (and others) care very much for her, and she doesn't sound like a dog you should give up on. It may take time, and you'll always have to take precautions, but it's worth it.

Patty · January 2012

My dog just ran right out the door. I doubt the little dog even knew she was there. I live on a very long, big, hill, so it's pretty private up here. XD She ran out of the garage, straight dog the lawn (fell, rolled down the hill), stood back up, and kept running. She's been fine with all the other dogs she's seen recently. We go to the dog park very often, 3+ times a week. We practice agility while other dogs are also around, she's offleash then, and does just fine. I think she has something against Simon. Because this is the only dog she has ever tried to fully..attack. She's shown signs of aggression (lunging, ect) with other dogs, but has never attempted to cause too much harm. She's been a little leash reactive too. But will calm dog (sit, lay, hush) when I tell her to. But, can be controlled fairly easily, although she is very strong. She's gotten out of her harness before. I'd like to try a different kind, because she can back out of this one if she wants to. I've got the language down pretty good, calming signals, ect. I'm just hoping I can end up being successful.

Animalsaremything · January 2012

Oh that is horrible ;/

my eyes would be like this for 15 seconds :shock: :shock: But I wouldn't put down my dog just for that.

EmmeZoec · January 2012

Patty wrote:

She's gotten out of her harness before. I'd like to try a different kind, because she can back out of this one if she wants to.

I would suggest a halti if you want a bit more control then a harness or regular collar. We use this one on our dogs when they were young and had a pulling problem > <a href="http://www.gentleleader.com/"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://www.gentleleader.com/</a>; and I hear their harness is very good. It is fairly hard to slip out of, but they also have head collars that snap to the actual collar. If you want another harness I would suggest a gentle leader harness, a walk your dog with love harness, or a "vest" harness that looks like this <a href="http://www.max200.com/max_storefront/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=471"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://www.max200.com/max_storefront/sc ... roduct=471</a> . The first two will work better to stop pulling to. This <a href="http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1699&ParentCat=202"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fusea ... entCat=202</a> is also a really great harness that I love. What kind of muzzle do you have? With the cloth ones dogs can't open their mouth to pant or eat/drink or anything. Also I imagine it would feel weird, have you ever taped two of your fingers together? I would think that it feels the same way, but they have no idea why they can't open their mouth and then the freak out.

DiamondPuppy0809 · January 2012

Some harnesses actually promote pulling as well, which puts the dog in a position to control you instead of vice versa.

KittKattize · January 2012

There was a harness that we had for clover that as a puppy it stopped her from pulling called the Easy Walk harness. It's very hard for them to escape.

Patty · January 2012

I've wanted to try a mesh harness. The muzzle we had did allow panting, drinking, and..eating, kind of. It didn't allow her to open her mouth enough to even attempt to bite. But, that's the point, right? We no longer have it, actually. It made her extremely upset just to see it.

EmmeZoec · January 2012

Was it something like this? <a href="http://www.dogsupplies.com/product_images/u/467/softeemuzzle__36558_zoom.jpg"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://www.dogsupplies.com/product_imag ... 8_zoom.jpg</a> or <a href="http://www.fordogtrainers.com/images/products/detail/NewGSDwiremuzzle.jpg"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://www.fordogtrainers.com/images/pr ... muzzle.jpg</a> ? I recommend the second one. One made of light weight metal with a lot of room for her muzzle. If you can get one that looks almost nothing like the old one, and reintroduce it. Start by just going for walks with it while you are holding on to it, having it where she sleeps, play a game of if she touches it she gets a treat. Slowly work up to just putting it so the collar part is around her neck but not on her nose. Have her stick her nose in to get REALLY high value treats (like leftover meats, raw meat, cheese, hot dogs) Or even, if you can, feed her her dinner in it or put it in/next to her bowl. Once she is very comfortable with it put it around her nose for half a second, literary on off party time. Then do it a little longer and longer until she accepts it. It will take longer because she already hates muzzles. If she has a panic attack then you might have gone to fast to soon, take the muzzle off and go back 5 steps and build up again. Patience and persistence is the key

Erra · January 2012

I am seconding the cage muzzle. From working in a professional setting with dogs like this, a muzzle that allows free motion of the jaw and unrestricted breathing is going to be better, even if it looks draconian. Its actually more comfortable for the dog and safer. A muzzle that keeps a dog from opening its mouth enough to bite is a muzzle that isn't allowing them natural panting or breath.

Patty · January 2012

It was similar to the first, but open. She could easily rip it off. I like the idea of the cage muzzle, I'll try it. But, it wouldn't help in situations like the one I just had. I just hope it doesn't happen again. My sister brought her dogs over today, and has a new Pug, that Allie hasn't ever met. We slowly introduced, and they did wonderfully together! At first, she showed some calming signals, and appeared not to be interested. So, we seperated. Later, out back, they had a great time playing. When introducing the muzzle, we did the same thing you suggested. I think the cage might be getter since it's not so closed in, and not fitted onto her muzzle. I don't do much in the way of treats. She's not very food motivated. Some simple praising, and pat, and some time playing is good enough to her. Plus, human food makes her incredibly sick. She has a very strict diet. ^^ I'd like to introduce this kind of muzzle, and see if it does any better. Thanks for the suggestion.

Erra · January 2012

Good luck

. Many people would have given up on her by now, but I am sure all of your hard work will pay off soon!

Howdy, Stranger!

Old Ways

Comments