VP Economy..?

UnknownDreamland · August 2010

I was thinking lately how other games I play have ways for money to go back into the game. For instance.. Buying collars, toys, leashes, dog beds, water bowls, etc. Paying for shows, entering and creating. Vet care, training, etc. (now let me get this clear here and now, my suggestion is NOT to add these. ;]) Now we do pay the game to create shows, but as far as I know you receive entry fees if you create a show.. Not complaining about that. But if you think about it, beyond the creating events which.. isn't that expensive, there aren't many ways for money to go back into the sim. But with eventing your dogs(which can earn millions, easily) it doesn't equal out. You can earn millions in one dog's eventing career. By creating 4 events every day with a 1000 entry fee(meaning you're paying 10k per event) you end up paying 40k. Now let's say you have a dog, Rover, and you enter him 4 shows every week until he's 12 started when he's done training at 3 years old(1728 shows). If Rover placed first in every single show, and every show had the entry-fee of 1k, and the first place winner receives 20k then you've won over 34,560,000 VPC from the game. If another one of your dogs, Fido entered the same events as Rover, but won second place every single show you've won 25,920,000 VPC from the game. Now if you have a third dog, Butch and you entered him in the same events as Rover and Fido but he placed third in every single show you've won 17,280,000 VPC from the game. And if you have a fourth dog, Lucky and you entered him in the same events as Rover, Fido, and Butch but he place fourth in every event then you've won 8,640,000 from the game. And if you calculated how much money went into the game from event fees 69,120.000. If you add up all the money you've won from your dogs eventing you've won 86,400,000. That's a total difference of 17,280,000 in your favor. Now imagine this. This isn't just these four dog's lifetimes worth of winnings. Think about -all- the eventers on VP. Think about the dogs who live much longer than 12 years. There is a LOT more VPC going OUT of the game than there is going IN. So what this is doing is more and money is coming into the game. Sure, some rich players quit, but realistically there are hundreds of dogs being evented and VP's economy is getting worse and worse. You know how some old players say 'I remember when upgrades went for 20 million'? Yeah, that really happened. There was a time when 20 million was a LOT of VPC. Now it's not. Want to know why? There isn't enough VPC going back into the game. This isn't just eventing either! When you upgrade, additional VPC goes to your account, every time a new player joins, 50k is now in circulation. If this keeps up, the prices will keep raising. Dyes, upgrades, imports.. There will be a time at some point when a billion dollars on VP is as average/common as people having 100 million. And it will become even more difficult for new or poor players to get their foot in the door. How are they supposed to buy an upgrade(if they can't pay USD) if they just joined and upgrades are going for 400 million or more? And imports! What about when they're going for 5 million each? How will a novice start their line? I'm not sure how to go about improving the economy here on VP, all I know is that VP has a lot of VPC in circulation, and it's only going to get worse.

Alabama · August 2010

I agree. It was sort of discussed <a href="http://virtualpups.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=69005"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">viewtopic.php?f=18&t=69005</a> . I really do think a tax of some kind would be a good way to take money out of the game and have limited effect on new or poor players.

UnknownDreamland · August 2010

I actually like that idea. Would it be taken every time you take a turn? Because wouldn't you then run into the issue of people keeping all their money in a separate kennel where they don't take turns or something? How exactly would that work?

Alabama · August 2010

The taxes would be a sales or business tax. The only time it would affect a player is if they put a dog up for sale or when they accept contracts from other players.

NickelbackLuver · August 2010

If the tax is taking away from me, however, I'd be selling the dog for more so I would receive as much as i think it's worth. I think a lot of other people would do the same, and therefore, dogs are going to be ridiculously overpriced. I'm not in a hurry to sell dogs, of course, so people like me would be more likely to do such a thing.. but that's most likely going to be experienced players, who have the good dogs. Taxing the rich and giving to the poor is only going to make people unhappy. If there's a tax at all, it should be the same for everyone. If I worked hard to get all this VPC, then I don't want to be penalized for working hard =/ I also think - hey, if you're showing dogs and getting all that money, you deserve it. It takes a lot of time to 1. get a dog that shows well and 2. enter that dog in ALL those events. You deserve pay for that. I don't think you get enough from events *shrugs* Maybe that's because I event a lot and I know it takes a lot of time and work, and honestly, I hardly notice I'm making anything. Just my two cents ;P If anything, give us something to spend our money on that puts it back into the game. Give us kennel specialties to spend our money on, give us bonuses to spend our money on. Don't just take money away.

CORY · August 2010

Nickelback__Luver wrote:

If the tax is taking away from me, however, I'd be selling the dog for more so I would receive as much as i think it's worth. I think a lot of other people would do the same, and therefore, dogs are going to be ridiculously overpriced. I'm not in a hurry to sell dogs, of course, so people like me would be more likely to do such a thing.. but that's most likely going to be experienced players, who have the good dogs. Taxing the rich and giving to the poor is only going to make people unhappy. If there's a tax at all, it should be the same for everyone. If I worked hard to get all this VPC, then I don't want to be penalized for working hard =/ I also think - hey, if you're showing dogs and getting all that money, you deserve it. It takes a lot of time to 1. get a dog that shows well and 2. enter that dog in ALL those events. You deserve pay for that. I don't think you get enough from events *shrugs* Maybe that's because I event a lot and I know it takes a lot of time and work, and honestly, I hardly notice I'm making anything. Just my two cents ;P If anything, give us something to spend our money on that puts it back into the game. Give us kennel specialties to spend our money on, give us bonuses to spend our money on. Don't just take money away.

I agree totally :P

Alabama · August 2010

A tax wouldn't be giving to the poor and it would be the same for everyone, regardless of how much money you have. If you have 1 trillion dollars and put a dog up on the market for say 50K and tax rate is 5%, you pay 2,500 in a tax. Player with $10 put a dog up for sale for 50K, they pay 2,500. However, if a player puts a dog up on the market for $500, they would pay just $10 in taxes... If you raise the price on your dog, that just means more money being taken out of the game, which is the point of the tax. You pay it and the player who buys it is paying you back for the tax, eventually, as more money leaves the game, if you want to sell the dog at all, you will have to lower your prices, but the price on every dog in the game will be lowered, not just the high priced ones. I have no problems with bonuses, I think they would be a good addition to the game, but, I think paying playcash to pay for them defeats the purpose of trying to take money out of the game. Most bonuses end up allowing a player to make more money, one way or another, whether it's better training for better events, better breeding for higher statted dog that sell for more or what have you. Yes, you pay for the bonus, but you might make 10Xs as much because of that bonus, totally wiping out any economic negative created by having to pay for it. I'm looking at this from an overall economic and game wide standpoint, not necessarily individual players. As the better players make more money, they can afford to pay more for more things. While this is good for them and I don't deny them their right/fun in making money, it absolutely sucks for the new players/players who can't/don't play as much, because while you're working your tail off, you are raising the prices on everything simply by being able to afford them, insuring that those other players can never afford what you have unless they spend real money on it. A tax wouldn't keep you from making that money, it would just help control the in game costs on some things. Even for the rich players. If a handful of players can afford to pay 1 billion for an upgrade, once they have their upgrades, the prices will start dropping until a good number of players can afford it, which means the price also drops for the rich players. The tax isn't about trying to make rich people poor or poor people rich, it's about stabilizing the prices so a good number of people can afford decent stuff.

UnknownDreamland · August 2010

Now, I don't pay for things very much in real life. I just don't generally go out and spend money. *cheap* But when you make purchases and whatnot, from the little I know, the people buying the merchandise pay the tax, not the people selling the merchandise. Is this correct? From your explanation, Alabama, it sounds as if it would be charging people who /accept/ contracts or sell dogs. That doesn't really make sense to me comparing it to real life. And I agree with Nickel to a point. We do receive a lot less than, say, VHR does(even though we are no longer really affiliated with them..?) but we're not as badly inflated as they are. Yet. But regardless of the amount we earn, the does need to be another way to put the money back into the system such as add-ons that give you certain perks that last a limited time but aren't cheap? Perks such as an event boost that lasts for 100(just throwing out a number here) turns? Where it ups your chance of winning by 5-10 percent, for all events entered in that period of time for X million, If you're rich you could keep pumping money into that, if you have a dog that doesn't live long, you may or may not earn you enough to counter that, but it gets a good show record and looks nice and its offspring may do better. So it adds incentive. And then for the trainer, maybe something like the Super Rough Play option for.. I don't know, 500 turns? Since if you're RHing a dog, it goes pretty fast and this costs X million. If you're rough housing a dog for a while this could speed it up, but it only lasts for a limited time. For a breeder maybe the next 15 litters have a 20-30% chance of more pups/better pups? Or it takes a week or two less for the mother to give birth? For boarding kennels, if could be something like if you pay 500k you can get an automatic "remove dogs that owner's can't pay" button for a quick get-rid of thing. Boarding kennels don't do much besides that, unless you event of course.. But something like this where it adds incentive for someone to pay money. But with the taxes, I don't see how it would work if someone evented dogs, but only trained their own dogs and never sold dogs. Nothing would change for them, and that's /basically/ how I work when I do train. Just some thoughts. *edit* Just saw your post Alabama, when I started typing it only had Tiffer's post as the last post. You did bring up some very good points though, I'll have to think about them. :]

NickelbackLuver · August 2010

Technically... if someone is paying for bonuses... and many people are doing so, then no, they won't be making more money in the long run. If people are busy spending their money on bonuses, then they aren't going to have the money to buy other things, and eventually everything will go down. I don't mean like 10k to get a bonus on your dog when you event. More like 500k. This would easily drain people's accounts. At the same time, however, if VP loses money, it's going to take a long time for people to adjust. Everyone thinks that once dyes hit something, lets say right now they are 30 mill, they MUST sell them for that price now. So, while you're getting rid of a huge chunk of the VPC, you're also going to mess up the flow VP has gotten into of adjusting to these higher prices. Actually, training prices are way lower now than they were a year ago. While people may not start out with as much money, they will make money a lot easier than I made money when I started. If people have more VPC, they're going to pay more VPC for things. Therefore, novices are getting paid more for small chores such as organizing someone's kennel. I'd pay a lot more now than I would have a couple years ago. So, really, if they put some effort into things, they aren't going to be at a huge disadvantage. And, they can show dogs just like the rest of us, so therefore, cutting off the amount people win from events, would also damage new players. Sorry if I'm arguing XD I just don't see the point in taxes. After all, we're all trying to escape reality a little, not deal with real life financial things.

Young_Native · August 2010

Taxes are a nice idea, but I can think of many people who are with it just as there are people against it. It's like real life. As Nickel put it, the rich worked hard for what they got and giving it to others seems hard, and it's not selfish, hard work is hard work. However, the not so rich players have a hard time thinking why the rich players would hate it so much, after all it's only a small chunk. It can stir up a lot of minor riots here and there if we want to use real life references. Why not make it something more...let's say, less bland as taxes? Like paying rent for your kennel! Each day you have to pay a certain amount. Like, each dog in your kennel costs $1 and the use of facilities (Dog trainers would have training equipment and such). However, this wouldn't put too much back in the game but it'll slowly put enough in. Another idea is like Nickel's, the whole extra bonuses. If they were priced somewhat expensive then that would easily and effectively stimulate the economy, even though I see there's nothing wrong with it. There are people hording cash at the moment. I see the prices eventually going down because in real life people can't afford upgrades, and people on here are starting to not afford upgrades either. One of these will have to change and that's the people buying upgrades for others. The public is the main stage and you have to adjust. It will stimulate on its own hands, I think. Taxes probably aren't as bad as they sound, but for some people it could probably be devastating. The poorer players are gaining and the rich are at a disadvantage. It's always a tug between the two. Soon, people will be complaining that they're having a hard time making money and then others will be complaining the richer players are having too much payout. Either way, I think the economy is doing just fine. If there has to be a stimulation, I say just add bonus features that players can enjoy. Nobody likes taxes and I'm sure there will be overwhelming and several complains against it. I vote for something fun and appealing than just being forced to throw cash back into the game.

Alabama · August 2010

I don't see it as an argument at all. It's a suggestion forum and we're discussing possible solutions for the economy before it does get as bad as VHR's

In real life, both the buyer and the seller pay taxes, at least here in the U.S. The buyer pays at the register and the seller/vendor pays quarterly on all earnings. I do like a hefty price on bonuses, especially if they aren't permanent bonuses, as Dreamland suggested, although, putting a high price on the bonuses will more or less mean new players won't be able to see the benefit for a while, especially if trying to save up for something like a sponsor. A tax isn't going to have instant effect on the over-all economy either. Sure, you might see some dogs suddenly priced very high, but for most, dogs and training, they just aren't going to bother with trying to adjust for the taxes, so the money will slowly start draining away. It's the big ticket items, that most novices can't afford anyway, like playcash purchases of sponsor/upgrades that will most likely see an almost immediate change in pricing, at first people will try to compensate for the tax and some might pay it, but within a couple months, it will come back down. If players can't/aren't willing to pay the extra cost to cover the taxes, the cost will come back down, otherwise the sellers won't be able to sell. That's the problem we have now, as more people join the game and get more money and put more money into play on the game, the prices will keep going up. I've seen a vast increase in prices in just the last 2 years. Prices have doubled on upgrades and dyes. I know because I was always amazed that 1VP cash was worth 2VHR cash.. It's still the same, however, where VHR one year upgrades used to go for 90 million, they now go for almost 200 million, and VP is keeping pace. In another couple years, if something isn't done to remove game cash, those will be VP's prices for upgrades as well. And it will take forever for a novice account to be able to afford them. I'm never sure about the "they have it easier than I did" reasoning. As pointed out, 2 years ago, prices on stuff wasn't as high as they are now. A player's 50K starting money gave them a much bigger head start than for players now. They didn't have to earn as much money in order to pay for a sponsor, yet they are still starting with the same amount of money. I would hazard a guess that 4 years ago, prices were even lower on upgrades and sponsor accounts. I'm not sure where the cut off money from events comes from. I don't see where anyone suggested anything concerning events, but then I may be overlooking it or too tired (past my bedtime). I wouldn't be for something that decreased the amount of winnings on events either.

UnknownDreamland · August 2010

I'll edit this/reply again tomorrow. I'd just like to note that I think the event concerns come from my explaining the economy using the income from events as an example of where money is coming from(although it is not the only way money is coming from, but is probably the prime contributor) might be slightly viewed as a suggestion to cut event winnings. I did state that that wasn't my suggestion at all, this was merely a post to discuss and suggest things. But if I made a post saying every new player adds 50k it would surely have less of an "omg!" response than over 17 million being added to the game for every 4 competing dogs. ;] Like I said, it wasn't a suggestion just something use as a 'rude awakening' type of thing. But I think everyone discussing here agrees that events should stay the same, if not up the prize money as long as we have a stable system/add-on that is helping the economy beforehand and will keep things stable afterwards. --more tomorrow.

NickelbackLuver · August 2010

Yeah, I'm just saying that new players do need to work to get somewhere. I don't think any of this tax stuff or whatever should be done solely with new players in mind. Don't want to make the old players mad/upset by making them pay high taxes either. I'm not saying they have it easier than I did.. I'm just saying they can make money off things according to the economy just as everyone else can. Another thing... with the contracts, that would end up taxing more than just game related stuff. That would also end up taxing people for purchasing artwork and whatnot... so all those things would have to fluctuate in price as well for people to make proper money. I don't think the tax stuff should expand beyond game-type things if it is every installed...which means there would have to be a different way to pay players for artwork. After all, they shouldn't have to pay game taxes for artwork. Most likely, those bonuses that are hefty priced, should be sponsor related bonuses, such as super RH. The novice accessible bonuses such as bonuses added to the dogs, could be a lower priced so they can fairly purchase them. All sponsor kennel related things would be what would be of most interest to those with money anyway, so those could fairly be priced high. Could also do something like what i had posted for the Image bank idea.... make it possible for kennels to buy special imports with VPC (make up a few breeds that they could buy with VPC) like 1 mill per dog or something. In the long run, they COULD sell them for more money, but it'd have to be high stat dogs, which it would cost a lot of VPC to buy enough imports for a line anyway. All the money would be drained, plus, people could get new breeds. I know I've been dying for new breeds anyway XD

Jellybeanjoe · August 2010

Young_Native wrote:

 Taxes probably aren't as bad as they sound, but for some people it could probably be devastating. The poorer players are gaining and the rich are at a disadvantage. It's always a tug between the two. Soon, people will be complaining that they're having a hard time making money and then others will be complaining the richer players are having too much payout. Either way, I think the economy is doing just fine.

Just a thought on that comment (although somewhat late-ish xD); Not true. If rich players sell their dogs cheap, they pay less tax. Just as if poor players sold their dogs at a high price, they'ld pay more. So strictly speaking, it doesn't affect one 'group' more than the other. It affects individual people, and what prices they want to sell dogs, and how much tax they'd want to pay. Just a thought

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VP Economy..?

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