Cropping, Docking and Standards

Oscar2 · October 2004

I was thinking that in real life to show certain breed they must fit certain lines like height and colour, dew claws removed and what not, I was thinking why not implement something were if you wish to show the dog it must fist the standards to certain extents like Dobermans cannot be over 2" of the standard 27" or below 3/16 the standard, why not do something like that (I haven't tried this but) if an animal is fixed it cannot enter confirmation classes? and Cropping and docking is something that is common in many breeds, and to show them these must be done (in some countries I realizes that this is no longer accepted but in the majority of countries still do such things) Dew claws are usually removed for working dogs as well as show dogs, (working dogs, because they do become another appendage more like and can be ripped off and the dog may bleed a substantial amount some do died depending on where they are) so in the sprit of trying to be closer to real life I suggest possibly of not too hard to maybe some how bring this into the system. (also can we Have REAL COLOURS AND CONFRIMATION? I.e. size vs. weight, what is a muddy Doberman?) Oscar Of Quaker Ville Kennels and Ranch

BluegumAussieBulldog · October 2004

Personally I like it the way it is. Then everyone has a fair go at winning in events. Plus ppl in RL are nasty here there is no real reason to be nasty, we are all equal. ANd the colours thing. I like being able to breed colours that are not normally in the breed. Look at VHR, I have seen horse with colourings like Green Polka Dots and Grease spots. Gotta have some fun somewhere on here, and it will hopefully keep players on here who like to have different colours "rare colours".

Alana · October 2004

well why not go by swedens standards on cropping and the likes, its illegal as h*** please excuse my language but I fail to see why a game would bennefit from that type of abuse. just my oppinion that it aint right to mutulate another being that trusts you and depends on you for no other reason than that some think it "looks better"

BluegumAussieBulldog · October 2004

Tail docking is also banned here in Australia. $10000 fine and jail time for real bad offences. That was only introduced this year. How many more countries are going to follow. That is why it should stay the same.

Oreo · October 2004

This would make a HUGE money failure. You breed a dog with WONDERFUL stats, but find out it can't be showed? Because it dosn't have standard? Correct colours take ALOT of coding. So i just breed for colour.

Spoiledbread · October 2004

What is tail docking?

Meina · October 2004

I believe that tail docking is a process done to many breeds like rottweilers. Their tails are naturally longer but they are cropped to be shorter. Am I correct here anyone?

Bara · October 2004

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/burakkubara/VirtualPups/taildocking.jpg"; alt="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/burakkubara/VirtualPups/taildocking.jpg"; class="bb-image" /> So far I have seen nothing but real canine colors. I admit that some colors are not found in the breed..but if you look hard enough..you’ll find in Real life some colors that you would not think to be in the breed..but apparently they are. A muddy Doberman is probably the same thing as saying liver..dobbies come in I think a hand full of colors. We have a nice little poster of picturers of dobys at the animal hospital I work at. The closest I could probably think of to being a muddy color dobby would be this dark sandy colored dobby with slightly lighter points and ..hazel? Eyes. As for tail docking and ear cropping. That is cruel and inhumane by my standards. Altering a dogs body for the sake of showing it, is exactly the same as altering your face and or breast size because a person feels they are inadequate and need to meet a mentally sick standard. The only difference is that as the dogs owner, the human is forcing their will upon the dog. The dog never asked to be hacked up. I don’t think you realize how painful it is for a dog to have their body parts chopped off. And any vet that tells you other wise needs to operate on him self one of these days and then tell you “it doesn’t hurt”. I see no gain in slicing off most of the dogs ears and practically all of their tails. And if those are the set requirements for showing in the AKC..well I’d be more then happy to tell them where they can lick me. If dogs were meant to have stubs for tails and up right ears..they would be born that way. Ear flaps protect that animals ear canals from foreign objects infecting and damaging them. Long ears like bloodhounds also allow the dog to capture scents. A tail is just as essential as ears. A tail provides balance. Look at human evaluation. As we learned to walk erect we began to loose our tails. Yes..dogs with no tails are perfectly capable of walking correctly, cause they learn to adapt. But that is still no reason to doc a dogs tail. If they did not need the tail, they would be born with out one. Tail docking is a barbaric and totally unnecessary procedure. Look at hackney horses and other gaited horses...humans used to slice the underside of the horses tail and put it in a cast just so they would look “pretty”. Sick freaks. I work at an animal hospital were we do lazer surgery..which is supposed to be the safer and “less” painful method of surgery for canines and felines. Let me give you the sick details of tail and ear docking. Because it’s not a quick simple process that some people think it is. One, only veterinary surgeons are allowed to dock and this should only be for therapeutic reasons. Vets who continue to routinely dock risk disciplinary action and could be struck off the professional register but cannot be prosecuted in a court of law. It causes the puppy pain, even at a very young age, and scar tissue is often left that never heals. Problems can also occur later in life and the tail then has to be amputated. What’s even worse is because the cost is so high to have tails and ears cut off..people think they can do it on their own, and thus cause major infections and ultimately the death of the puppy. Tail docking refers to the amputation of all, or part of an animal’s tail, using a cutting or crushing instrument. Approximately seventy breeds of dog are subject to tail docking.in the United States. Tails are usually docked when a puppy is two to five days old, and an anesthetic is not generally administered, of course causing the animal pain. Two methods are generally used: a) the tail is clamped a short distance from the body and the portion of the tail outside the clamp is cut or torn away, or b) a small rubber band is placed on the tail at the desired length preventing the flow of blood to the remainder of the tail which falls off after approximately three days. A dog’s tail is comprised of muscles, tendons, nerves, cartilage, and bone. All of which are severed during a docking procedure. Ear cropping is the practice of reshaping a dog’s ears by surgically removing the pinna, or “floppy part” of the ear. Approximately one-half of the ear is removed. Ears are cropped when a puppy is between nine and twelve weeks old. A general anesthetic is required, the procedure is generally performed by a veterinarian, although breeders and dog owners often undertake amateur attempts of the ear cropping procedure. Once the pinna is removed, the veterinarian then tapes the ears in an erect position to a splint or bracket. Post-operative pain medication is rarely provided, though the ears have blood flow and are comprised of cartilage and nerves. A series of follow-up visits are conducted during which the ears are handled, stretched along the edges, and re-taped. <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/burakkubara/VirtualPups/earone.jpg"; alt="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/burakkubara/VirtualPups/earone.jpg"; class="bb-image" /> <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/burakkubara/VirtualPups/1afternoon2.jpg"; alt="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/burakkubara/VirtualPups/1afternoon2.jpg"; class="bb-image" /> Now for ear cropping I have never seen this method. But in the last two weeks that I have worked at the AAHA Animal Hospital near me, there was a white pit upppy that came in who had his ears cropped and infected. He came in for a recheck Friday morning to have the stitches removed. After hearing this poor puppy yelp in pain for the next 10 minutes (cause he had no pain killers..and he was a wiggly sucker) I don’t understand how a vet or a human could condone such an act, and say that it doesn’t hurt the animal. No scientific studies have been conducted to establish whether docking and cropping and docking have any medical value. Please don’t think that I am yelling at you or any one in particular. I just love my real life doggy to much to even imagine cutting off her tail..or chopping off her ears. The only reason why this procedure is done is because people still think in their sick and twisted heads that certain animals MUST look a certain way to fit into society and or win any kind of recognition. This is brought to you some what by the happy site of <a href="http://www.animallaw.info/"; target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://www.animallaw.info/</a>; woot woot! <a href="http://bedford.extension.psu.edu/Agriculture/Lessons/Docking and Castration.htm" target="_blank" class="bb-url">http://bedford.extension.psu.edu/Agricu ... ration.htm</a> those look like nice tools =_=

Meina · October 2004

Very well said CR. I don't have nearly as much experience or knowledge as you in this area, but from what you said, I feel very well informed. Can you imagine if it didn't look "right" for us to have ear cartilage? So our parents took us to doctors to have it cut off when we were JUST BORN? How would you feel if your mom or dad forced you to have painful surgery just for their benefit? I know that a puppy is not the equivalent to a newborn baby (to most people), but I love my dog just as much as a member of my family. Dog's are (wo)man's best friend after all, and they deserve to be treated fairly. At least we have anesthetics when we undergo surgery to alter ourselves.

Oreo · October 2004

If we want no tails on dogs, go breed a breed that naturally dosn't have a tail. My grandmas Cockapoo dosn't have a tail, but he was born that way. It is cruel and inhumane. OMG poor dogy!!!(the one in CRs piccy) And what is dew claws? Is it claw removel?

Meina · October 2004

Dew claws are little claws on the lower leg. Dogs have them from being descendants from wolves, I believe. Yes, they are removed, but they are removed for almost all dogs and it's not nearly as cruel or inhumane. But you can correct me if I'm wrong, CR.

Bara · October 2004

Dew claw removal should be a dog by dog basis. My fei when we adopted her had her dew claws removed. If she didn’t, for her safety I may have had them removed for her. Fei is a Pointer, and she is very...clumsy when she plays. She has already hurt her self a few times (she has scars on 3 legs now) while hunting in my yard or playing chase the bubbles. My fear is if she had her dew claws still, they would get caught on my cloths or other things out side and she may hurt her self. Tho animals have higher pain tolerances then humans, I would still imagine having a nail ripped from your foot would be painful. However if dew claw removal is not needed and you are worried about the nail catching, you can always trim it. Most dogs dew claws lay flat against the paw, so they may not be that easy to catch on something. My personal opinion on dew claw removal, specially with having my crazy playful dog fei (who will box and swing at you with the inside of her paws), is that if they are going to have a surgery like a spay or neuter..or are going to be put under for a dental you might as well remove them also. I really don’t think that they serve a purpose in domesticated animals any more...maybe catching and holding on to prey better?

Oreo · October 2004

kk, so dew claw removel isn't inhumane. But croping is. I get it know. Its a matter of cruelty. If its needed for shows, well smelly socks for the show hosts

Bara · October 2004

well im not sure if it is inhuman or not. See i had three dalmations before i had fei, and they still had their dew claws. Really in all honesty, I never even paid attention to their dew claws. That shoudl tell you something, since them keepig their dew claws never caused them a problem. Fei..when we adopted her, she was spayed and her dewclaws were already removed. If her claws were not removed before we got her..i would have them removed when i brought her to the vets for a dental cleaning. Just because of how she plays..she already bangs her self up enough as it is. My neighbor has a little terrier mix who is very hypper..however she has weird dew claws and her nails grow out sideways and even when she keeps them trimed her little dog snags them on her shoes and socks when playing aroudn her feet. Since she is having him fixed, she will be removing them while he is under. The major difference is that to crop a tail..the puppies are not giving painkillers..or put under. This way..if you alter your dog.he or she is alreay under and will not feel the surgery. But liek i said. it should be a dog by dog basis. Dew claw removal MAY prevent iinjury to the dog..ear croping serves no purpos other then to make a dog look "pretty".

Oreo · October 2004

i think a dog looks way better with its ears not cropped. I think the game dosn't need docking and cropping.

Steel · October 2004

I don't want cropping and docking on the game either... I believe it is inhumane, and should be illegal in North America. Removing dewclaws may be inhumane or may not, I can't really back up either statement, but personally I'm not for it. It still seems like removing a natural body member from the animal, and shouldn't be done. Unless I could see some real benefit other than it "catching on something", that doesn't seem like a huge safety benefit to me. The only natural body parts that I'm for removing in RL is the sexual organs, since that is proven to reduce the chances of roaming, aggression, and possesiveness, and eliminate the chances of certain diseases.

Bara · October 2004

*GRRRRR* I got back form work at the animal hospital today....grrrrrrrrr... So so SOOO pissed off at this lady. She comes in with a 10 month old Mini Pincher (sp) that she just bought..un docked and floppy eared....SHE WANTED THEM HACKED OFF. =_= and what's worse...doc decided that he would do it to. Se they had to traet it like an amputated tail instead and had to surgically remove it and break bone ><;; he was left with a freakin stub. I was so up set. =_= I hat to help to.."Jackie, get me two popsical sticks and some tape" GRRRR. that poor dogs has sticthes and take holdign his ears together and a cone on his head..every times he moved his head or the cone moved he woudl start haivng yeling fits cause the cone would rub against his ears. Mini pinchers are so darn cue, that I think i may want to breed them in VP ..;;_;; but this dog. gods i jsut wnted to cuddel it. =_= and the lady isn';'t even showing it..so there is no point of HACKING IT U P.

Oscar2 · October 2004

I am sorry if i offened anyone in with this topic, i work in the industry (if you would call it that) and i believe if a dog is for a pet it should not be hacked up. as for show animals, i have seen a great deal of breeders and handlers mess up on the ears, and should not be taken as a light desition, one of my first Danes id def in one ear because of an infection. so Sorry if i offened anyone. just a thought.

Bara · October 2004

no no. I didn;t mean to sound angry. And im not mad at you. I'm just pissed at people that do this to dogs. I just got to help in my first surgery and it was a Lazer Surgery for a 4 foot declaw on a kitten. =_= not fun. Pluse i've seen dogs come in wiht infected ears..one cat keeps taking the glue out of her paws when she was declawed. and then that poor mini pincher. I have built up agression for people who dont mind abusing animals.

Anonymous · October 2004

It's important to remember that cropping and docking were procedures performed to serve a purpose. Generally, the only dogs that had their ears cropped were dogs that often were of the working group---dogs that performed jobs. In most cases, this 'work' was guard duty of some sort, be it police-type work, or sheep guarding. The dogs ears were cropped to prevent them from either being mutilated (from other dogs or wolves should a fight erupt), or having them be grasped and possibly torn off by a burglar (or what have you). The tail was docked, originally, for those reasons as well. After all, if you have a burglar breaking into whatever it is you want guarded, do you really want him to be able to get a good grasp on your guard dog's ears and either break the dog's neck, or possible tear the ear (which would be far more painful), or grab the dog's tail and possibly break the bones, or also tear the joints? Some dogs in modern times still perform the tasks they were originally bred to do, and thus still require these procedures. However, simple households pets do not need these procedures, making them highly unnecessary and really a waste of money (not to mention the unneeded pain it causes to the dog). I imagine the reason why some breed standards frown down on those uncropped or undocked, is because the breed is known for the look those procedures cause, and because those procedures represent a working dog (or did, anyway). They want to still show that the dog is very much a dog with a purpose (job), and thus they do not want to change things. I'm not saying I approve of the procedures, but please keep what I've said in mind before bashing the procedures---they did, and still do in some instances, serve a very real purpose. If you can sit there and say dewclaw removal is not as cruel, then keep in mind that the ears and tails of a working guard dog can be torn in the same manner as those dewclaws.

Oreo · October 2004

1 see to problems. A) There are no burglers on VP, no wolfs either. ANd dogs arn't gonna ge tin a fight, are dogs have nothing to gaurd, in events, to you think the person being chased is gonna rip of the dogs ear? We don't have ripping of body parts here. The only reason cropping and docking would be here (but it won't) would be for the purpose of showing. B) Cropping and docking is illegal in some countries like Australia. VP will not and does not practice illegal activities. If you noticed, this game will never have burglars, just as it will never keep mutts from showing (yes you are aloud to show mutts on here. I think)

Alana · October 2004

oki as for tearing ears off, they are just as easily grabbed while upright as downwards, I know that for a fact as I have had to grab a few for self protection at times the tail however I can see why on a working dog and I also know that some dogs beat their tails on all sorts of things and get wounds that just wont heal so sometimes thats a reason to remove a part of the tail so the dog cant hurt itself as much. I once had a dog that got a claw pulled out while running in the woods with me and that was no dew claw just a regular spur but it took months to heal and was a real pain for him so that I can see why.

just my oppinon

Bara · October 2004

Anonymous wrote:

It's important to remember that cropping and docking were procedures performed to serve a purpose. Generally, the only dogs that had their ears cropped were dogs that often were of the working group---dogs that performed jobs. In most cases, this 'work' was guard duty of some sort, be it police-type work, or sheep guarding. The dogs ears were cropped to prevent them from either being mutilated (from other dogs or wolves should a fight erupt), or having them be grasped and possibly torn off by a burglar (or what have you). The tail was docked, originally, for those reasons as well. After all, if you have a burglar breaking into whatever it is you want guarded, do you really want him to be able to get a good grasp on your guard dog's ears and either break the dog's neck, or possible tear the ear (which would be far more painful), or grab the dog's tail and possibly break the bones, or also tear the joints? Some dogs in modern times still perform the tasks they were originally bred to do, and thus still require these procedures. However, simple households pets do not need these procedures, making them highly unnecessary and really a waste of money (not to mention the unneeded pain it causes to the dog). I imagine the reason why some breed standards frown down on those uncropped or undocked, is because the breed is known for the look those procedures cause, and because those procedures represent a working dog (or did, anyway). They want to still show that the dog is very much a dog with a purpose (job), and thus they do not want to change things. I'm not saying I approve of the procedures, but please keep what I've said in mind before bashing the procedures---they did, and still do in some instances, serve a very real purpose. If you can sit there and say dewclaw removal is not as cruel, then keep in mind that the ears and tails of a working guard dog can be torn in the same manner as those dewclaws.

Im not sure what dogs you are mentioning here, but currently I cannot think of any herding dogs that have their tails and ears removed for this purpose. For police dogs..only dog that comes to mind is maybe a doby. Shepard’s do not have their tails and ears removed (even if their ears stand erect). Ever try and grab an aggressive dogs ear before? LOL or tail? You hand and arm are close enough to their face to get a good snap. It’s hard enough to restrain an aggressive dog, specially a wiggly one. If the dogs ears are cropped for this purpose..they are just as easily able to be grabbed. In the case of dogs ears being militated by other dogs. Pit bulls that are used for fighting have their ears cut off till they are pretty much little stubs, and they have their tail cut off as well. This procedure is meant to prevent mutilation by other dogs, simply because humans make them fight. Not because they are working dogs and will be attacked by other dogs/wolves. The reason why it is still done today is because people think dogs need to look a certain way to be shown. If im wrong, then im wrong and it’s no big deal. I would like to have facts to back up that im wrong tho. Cause I still can’t think of a breed that needs this done for their working purpose. There is the German shorthair pointer, and the whime..but I don’t remember why they have their tails docked. Before I was 4 and we got our dalmatians my parents bred Whimes for hunting. Champ bloodlines. We use to take them up north for feild trials. I have picturers some where. *is back* I just asked dad why he did it. Said that they injure their tail? But all our litters had it. Not sure why. Probably because they have to look a certain way since they were AKC? I woudl liek to know why certian dogs have their tails docked while other dogs that serve the same purpose get to keep their tails. Specially in the pointers. Some breeds of pointer keep their tails...others don’t. I know our fei kept her tail cause for her breed a long white tail is easy to see in the tall grasses. Well...i knwo on the biggum mastifs my uncle has..we can see why their tails are removed.. Huge things, and they can hurt them selves. But stick a dog in a house and they are bound to hurt them selves some how, LOL they can be clumsy animals just liek humans can be. They will learn tho. There's always an aception to teh rule. Mmm.. Change that. My girlfriends got a welsh corgie and two Jack russles in her barn, I forgot about them. All three have their tails docked. However their ears are born like that. Corgies..not sure why peopel get rid of tehir tails..they were used mainly for sheep i belive. Thos this little corgie seems to think that Throughbred Colts are more his things. And the Jacks...werent they ment for rat catching? Jacks and corgies are two common barn dogs you will find. NOt sure what purpose having their tail docked serves either.

Anonymous · October 2004

I once read a book a while ago about someone getting his dog's tail docked and ears clipped. The author said think of a child getting his ears clicked and half his nose [since humans have no tails] taken off.

Oscar2 · October 2004

ignore this

Bara · October 2004

Anonymous wrote:

I once read a book a while ago about someone getting his dog's tail docked and ears clipped. The author said think of a child getting his ears clicked and half his nose [since humans have no tails] taken off.

LOL brings new meaning to the phrase "only a face a mother woudl love" XP

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Cropping, Docking and Standards

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